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#996722 - 1st Jan 2016 2:11pm History behind a walking stick.
venice Offline

Forum Master

Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2503
Loc: Wirral
We have a hand carved walking stick come to us through the family , that we would like to know a bit more about. Its in the attic at the minute so no photo, but its the written info carved into it which is the useful stuff.
Its handcarved over every inch. The handle lifts and converts when tilted 90deg , to a smokers pipe. The top shaft is square with a caged ball amongst decorative carving. On one side is carved the word PRESENT ,and next to it a match holding 'hole' covered with a copper sliding door bearing the inscription surname proably Sinnon or possibly Simon - the initials for the forename could be IJ or JS - really dont know . Next to that, the heavily carved date 1896.
The next side says (all writing heavily carved the width of stick ) FROM MOLD TO, the next one M.ROBERTS.HAWT and the last one HORN DEENE CHESTER

The lower part of the stick has scallops carved out of it all round . The funny thing is, in every scallop is clearly carved 2x2 or sometimes that , but written vertically
2
x
2
so Im thinking it might be a bespoke piece for a presentation or something.To a retiring teacher maybe?

Ive learned nothing from googling Horn Deene . The person the stick ended up with (not the owner) is dead, so we cant ask about its origin , but he never went out of the old Flintshire area as far as we know.His family were gamekeepers and farm workers/estate cooks.

Anyone know anything about whether Horn Deene was a place, school, place of work etc ? Were walking sticksa traditional retirement present once? Has anyone seen another stick with a pipe for a handle?

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#996748 - 1st Jan 2016 5:44pm Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice]
Greenwood Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 20th May 2011
Posts: 592
Loc: Greasby
That sounds like a lovely piece of work - a picture would be great to see, sometime. Have you thought of sending a photo of it to the Grosvenor Museum in Chester? They might be able to shed some light on what/where Horn Deene was, to take you further back in its tale.

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#996761 - 1st Jan 2016 6:09pm Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice]
Greenwood Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 20th May 2011
Posts: 592
Loc: Greasby
Just reading your post again, it occurs to me that the carving might carry on from line to line, which would give you Hawthorn Deene. There is a house called Hawthorn Dene (only one e) at Puddington, near Chester. Perhaps you could check out census listings for the house 1891 - 1901 to see if M Roberts lived there.


Edited by Greenwood (1st Jan 2016 6:11pm)

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#996806 - 1st Jan 2016 10:19pm Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice]
venice Offline

Forum Master

Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2503
Loc: Wirral
Hi Greenwood. Thanks for your posts. Yes, I hadnt thought of the HAWT linked to THORN --It could be couldnt it . Not very professional looking if it is though!!Dont really thnk the Puddington 'Dene' would be involved though as the DEENE is very clear -- wouldnt know how to check a census address in any case. Think Ill do your first suggestion though when I get a photo , and see if they can throw any light on it. Thanks.

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#996817 - 1st Jan 2016 11:12pm Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 13684
Loc: Wirral
Might be, might not be. Haven't read it all and to be honest I can't understand what I have read.

Leave that to you laugh

http://www.2x2ministry.org/2x2_timeline.php

2x2 Religion Founder William Irvine

The "2x2" religion, "2 by 2" religion or "two by two" religion is the religion founded by William Irvine (Master Mason degree in 1885) in about 1897. According to William Irvine, to become a WORKER, one must sell everything (including your house), give them all your money and follow the OVERSEER'S and your older WORKER COMPANION's instructions (WORKERS assigned together call each other "companions").
_________________________
...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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#996819 - 1st Jan 2016 11:34pm Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9675
Loc: Birkenhead
Excellent and interesting find granny but the sadly the dates area against you.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#996821 - 2nd Jan 2016 12:33am Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: diggingdeeper]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 13684
Loc: Wirral
Originally Posted By: diggingdeeper
Excellent and interesting find granny but the sadly the dates area against you.


Oh, sorry. What date are we looking for, I thought it was 1896 ?
_________________________
...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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#996822 - 2nd Jan 2016 1:49am Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9675
Loc: Birkenhead
Yes, two by twos was founded in Ireland in 1897, the society itself didn't use that name until many years later, it was a nickname for them.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#996823 - 2nd Jan 2016 2:04am Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice]
venice Offline

Forum Master

Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2503
Loc: Wirral
Wow ,good spotting granny -- imagine if it had been something to do with that, that would have been a real find wouldnt it . Strange co-incidence though, all these 2's .

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#996825 - 2nd Jan 2016 7:10am Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9675
Loc: Birkenhead
It is remarkably coincidental, I was trying to find a precursor group but found nothing.

Also found zilch on Hawthorne Deene around Cheshire.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#996826 - 2nd Jan 2016 8:03am Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: diggingdeeper]
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran

Registered: 27th Nov 2008
Posts: 7850
Loc: tranmere
A good shout by Greenwood I think.

I can find 2 mentions of Hawthorn Dene, Chester.

1889.
An Auction held by Messrs Churton Elphic & Co of Household Furniture, Pictures, etc, at,

Hawthorn Dene, Hoole Rd, Chester.

Instructions from Rev H P Ramsden (Reverend Henry Plumtre Ramsden, Inspector of Schools)


1890,

Mrs Maclaverty, Hawthorn Dene
Lady Patroness, Chester Artillery & Rifles

Haven't found the property in any census yet.
_________________________
God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.

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#996830 - 2nd Jan 2016 10:47am Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice]
ludwigvan Offline
Forum Addict

Registered: 6th Jan 2010
Posts: 1129
Loc: Middle Earth
Perhaps the walking stick has a tenuous connection to Noah's ark, the caged ball could be a metaphor for the Earth and every living thing caged, or confined aboard the ark. The scallops have an obvious marine theme and, of course, the animals boarded 2 x 2. I'm probably talking a load of tosh, but our forebears were very keen on symbology.

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#996834 - 2nd Jan 2016 2:03pm Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9675
Loc: Birkenhead
Yep, things are starting to jigsaw together ....

Quote:
The Rev. Henry Plumptre Ramsden, 8.A., has been appointed by tbe Lord Bishop of Chester a diocesan inspector of schools for this diocese.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#996836 - 2nd Jan 2016 2:59pm Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: diggingdeeper]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 13684
Loc: Wirral
Originally Posted By: diggingdeeper
It is remarkably coincidental, I was trying to find a precursor group but found nothing.



It did say 'about 1987', that was why I thought there was a slight discrepancy.

William Irvine was a member of the 'Faith Mission in 1896 he joined in 1895 and he was still a Freemason.

quote ""As we continue to receive word that certain itinerant workers (associated with Mr. Irvine and Mr. Cooney) frequently pass under the title of "Pilgrims" or "Faith Workers", we wish it to be observed that the name "Pilgrim" was adopted for our evangelists from the formation of the Faith Mission in 1886, and that the workers of this new association differ very widely..in aims, principles, and methods from those of our Mission"

There is so much to read about this William Irvine and another coincidence is that he had two sisters, one lived in Scotland and one lived in Wales. When he died in Israel he had been there for many years with very few possessions and I wonder if he left some of his possessions with his sister when he went to Israel . Maybe his walking stick ??

Masonic walking sticks or possibly staffs quite often had the caged ball incorporated. Maybe it was symbolic of his split with the Faith Mission and his previous Freemason connections and embarking on his new . The stick didn't necessarily have to have been made in 1896 but could have included 2 x 2 from a later date.

Well, I am a romanticist at heart, but it fits quite well so far. Pilgrims would have travelled and used a walking stick/staff and as he died of throat cancer, he probably smoked too !

There are many links I could put up but unless anyone wishes to read them there is little point, as relevant script is difficult to find amongst the massive History written about him.
_________________________
...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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#996837 - 2nd Jan 2016 3:08pm Re: History behind a walking stick. [Re: venice]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9675
Loc: Birkenhead
I'm wondering if this was connected to Chester Union Workhouse which was on Hoole Road from 1873. This had a school and a church.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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