Forums Forums Wirral History : Chasing the Past History Information Request History behind a walking stick.

Venice,

I think the stick belonged to William Morris Roberts, too many coincidences for it not to, its likely he was known as Morris and used his full name for official form filling, many did and do.

It looks highly likely it was presented to him by the Chester & North Wales Travellers, seems a nice fit doesn't it?

Connecting him or his family to Dinah Roberts and her family would as I previously mentioned be time consuming and perhaps expensive, because proof may only be obtained by the purchase of certificates.

1891 advert,

Beginning to think these buildings were of an official capacity.

Someone else looking for Shrublands . If Hawthorn Dene is most likely to be 87, and W.M.Roberts is mentioned at both Hawthorn Dene and Shrublands..... here must be the answer from 1967 Kelly's directory.

quote "From my 1967 Kelly's Directory of Chester I find:

87/89 Hoole Road, Shrubslands, Private Home for the Aged

87/89 is between Hamilton St and Vicarage Road."

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/CHESHIRE/2002-01/1012075289
---------------------------------------------------------------
What do you have now Venice ? I have been trying to work out where we have come to, after being all around the country.

For definite We have :

a) a walking stick dated 1896 to M.Roberts, Hawthorn Dene,Chester from Mold

b) W.M.Roberts (born 1848 )address Hawthorn Dene from 1892.Commercial Traveller.Address at Shrublands in 1911. In 1911 a director of a lead mine and a family connection. http://www.aditnow.co.uk/community/viewtopic.aspx?t=9321

c) Hawthorn Dene , Hoole, Chester and an auction in 1889, instructed by Rev. H.P. Ramsden.

d) 1896 still at Hawthorn Dene ,Hoole Road. also Date on the walking stick.

e) Rev. Henry Plumpton Ramsden diocesan inspector of schools for this diocese.1882

f) Lord Bishop of Chester (official capacity relating to Rev.Ramsden)

g) a number of commercial travellers @ address Shrublands between 1861 and 1891

h)Undeciphered Code on a bloody walking stick.


Is there anything missed off of any relevance atm. ?

I know bert,but the mining forum guy appeared to already be researching his tree, so may well have already done it.( Dinah wouldnt have been significant to him at the time ) If its the same tree as Dinah, I could add what I know for him. I have a bit more family history (left to me, I didnt do it myself) on the side that it looks like the stick has come via, than on the side we originally thought it came via .Happy to buy the certificates needed if he doesnt come back or doesnt know, may as well find out having come this far.

Interesting prices. £75 a month eh, for what must have been a huge property if you look at the average 3/4 shillings ones.

DD your last post and granny's quote -- M Roberts occupation is named as 'gentleman' . Does that mean by 1906 he was pretty wealthy?.Does the cutting, mean hes being considered for a commissioners job of some sort ? Dont understand what this means either- quote - and to remove the qualification by estate required in the case of all such Commissioners, ?

I always associate the historical term 'Traveller' with the snake oil image, selling a bit of this and that, to scratch a living . Could he have gone from salesman to gentleman over a short period I wonder , or is the term gentleman here, not to be read into as ' non working moneyd ?

only just read your last post granny after posting myself . Need to go out now , will respond later.

Chester and North Wales Commercial Travellers Association.

Seem to have involvement relating to many things , So DD might well be right when he mentioned workhouse/orphanage (?) . Plenty of info on web and obviously a body of business people who were in an important position. John Rylands was also a member at one time.

Hi granny - I too have this morning being investigating the NW commercial travellers association , which led me to the website of historic welsh newspaper articles youve probably seen as you mention the association seem to be into allsorts
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4590619/4590625/34/
(second 'no title' heading down) This sort of feels like links to the Masonic angle dont you think? I dug some more into that site and found the association also held walking competitions .I wonder if the stick was presented as a prize for that maybe .That would fit with berts idea.

Bit more digging that site led me to something irrelevant, but interesting(Although not as intriguing as another article there about the person who swallowed a walking stick !! GOOD LORD I think I might be getting more interested in social history!!!!

"QUEER WALKING STICKS. There are now in the market scores of walking sticks and riding whips which are made from monkeys' tails," said a. London dealer in canes and umbrellas; "these in the rough, mostly coming from Brazil and from certain parts of India, where the natives prepare them for the market. I have seen many a stick which has been made out. of the twisted ligaments from the legs of wild ani- mals, and I have one in the shop now. But then I know a stick-maker chemically prepares fix-fax,' which he buys from the butchers, and out of thie he makes beautiful little whips for cavalry officers. Then there is another kind of stick made from a peculiarly tough fungus, not unlike an ordinary mushroom in the rough etaie, which comee from Java. The stalk1 grows to an immense length, and when the whole thing is properly prepared it becomes even hard, and can be trimmed and turned as to the head. Paper sticks are coming most strongly into vogue, and very Leautiful sticks they axe, besides being absolutely unbreakable by any ordinary means. You see, they can be dyed to any colour, and they turn in a lathe like the finest ivory." -?-

The
branches of the Commercial Travellers’ Christian Union arranged excursions, though their monthly
meetings centred on talks on religious themes an
d sermons plus teas in line with their temperance
principles

Hosgood argued that commercial travellers posse
ssed a well-established and resilient 'culture of
fraternity', which belied images of lower middle-class insecurity.
While ‘on the road’,
they stayed in
commercial hotels where their sense of solidarity wa
s expressed through rituals, resembling Masonic
practices,"


http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/4535/1/4535.pdf

There was another quote on the page somewhere I can find again, that said it wasnt known how much Masonics influenced the travellers assoc, but there was at least one travellers group within the Masons.

Venice,

If you're going to do family research, you have to be wary of others trees and their findings, they may be wrong. Its best if you do your own research and start a tree from a point you think fit. Seek help by all means and there is plenty of help available. One of the major problems in family history is that far to many people accept that other peoples trees are correct without checking that information completely.

The religious connection might explain the 2x2,s

Ah, yes bert, point taken . Not sure Ill become a family history buff , but Ill bear what you say in mind thanks .

From what I can gather, William Irvine joined the Faith Mission in 1895. He was sent from Scotland to Southern Ireland to head the organization in 1896. By 1897 he was becoming disillusioned after reading Matthew 10. In 1898 he met Edward Cooney, who was a Christian Commercial Traveller . From that meeting and the bible classes based on the teachings of Matthew Ch.10, Cooney gave up his job and joined the unfolding movement of the 2 x 2 church that began to transpire at the turn of 20th c., taking with them members from the Faith Mission sect.
The 2 x 2's were going out to preach( that's why they were called 'Tramp Preachers'or Pilgrims) 2 at a time and those who joined were to give up their wealth and property, presumably to give to the poor.

The only thing I can now think is that M.Roberts was a member of the Faith Mission when it was founded (or near enough)and at a later date moved to the 2 x 2 church, which was a Christian sect. and would presumably somehow have connections with the Anglican Church.



The fact that William Irvine from Scotland had a sister in Wales intrigues me a little from your family history point of view ,Venice. Her married surname was Cleland . The other sister was also Cleland as they married brothers.

Having read more about the 2x2's No tobacco was one of their 'no no' s so on reflection , it would be an anomily to have a pipe walking stick with 2x2's all over it , so I think there must be another explanation for the markings.

You won't believe this ! Last night I was talking to a friend whom I have know for 10yrs or more. I asked if he knew anything about the Faith Mission.

Ha! His reply...."I am still a Faith Mission pilgrim "

To cut a long story short, he joined the Faith Mission in 1960's as a young man. He had to go to their Edinburgh College to study for 2/3 yrs including hard graft like on hands and knees scrubbing floors etc . (Sounds like a penance similar to monks )Had to give up his job, not allowed to work or have an income .He travelled around the country in pairs,(men ) staying at all sorts of odd places sometimes hostels, sometimes caravans, etc. all provided by the Mission.
He met his wife who was also in the Mission but they ended up travelling in different places. Once they were married they carried on the same way. They had no home and had an income of £35 a quarter (joint) to live off .
Eventually they decided they wanted a family and had to come back to base and find employment and a home, but he is still classed as a pilgrim.

May I say, a more compassionate , gentle and caring person to everyone, you could never meet.

Maybe the 1871/1881/1891/ 1901 Census' could give a place for W.M.Roberts. "BERT "

I think you should take the stick to the museum . They will have better access for searching the origins of such things. Value is not of importance it's the history that has the value, which could be great or small.