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If it was possible I would say "walk away" from the Middle East mess and let them all kill each other. Unfortunately that is not possble because
We (and lots of others post WW1 and WW2) created the artificial countries in the area that give some cause to the various inter-state conflicts
Mr Blair "meddled" a few years back
We have "feelings" for some of those opressed by various regimes and think we can help (debatable)

Mosty importantly it is not possible because Daesh or whatever you want to call it EXISTS and has a declared objective to cause havoc on the Western society that we know. They will do this whether or not we (UK) or Europe generally get more involved in the present conflicts. The declared objective can be seen on various posted videos/ documents that come either directly from the Middle East or from the represenatives of such organisations within Europe inc. UK

The most damming clip I can find is
http://www.cbn.com/tv/embedplayer.aspx?bcid=1509282970001
OK, this is a clip from a US channel so many of us will consider it biased. However, there is NO doubt about what the Belgian guy is saying.

What REALLY gets me is WHY a guy like that is not simply shipped out of Belgium, a country and culture he obviously despises - whether or not he was even born there? "Uman rights I suppose. I said the same about old "Hooky" and it took YEARS to get rid of him. In general - all are welcome here IF THEY AGREE TO AND CONFORM TO our national spirit.

Snod

Last edited by Snodvan; 27th Nov 2015 7:49pm.

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Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical.

General Sun Tzu

Fools rush in without a plan; if in doubt panic; act in haste.

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Seems to me to be a done deal---already had the ISIS "weapons of mass destruction" rhetoric similar to that Bliar used to get us into Iraq. Would think its almost certain that our Military leaders have agreed that air bombing has some value otherwise it wouldn't even be on the table for getting approval. Cant believe that its just down to the politicians to decide.

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Comments from former US drone operators

the former drone operators have described how their colleagues dismissed children as “fun-sized terrorists” and compared killing them to “cutting the grass before it grows too long.” Children who live in countries targeted by the drone program are in a state of constant terror, according to Westmoreland: “There are 15-year-olds growing up who have not lived a day without drones overhead, but you also have expats who are watching what’s going on in their home countries and seeing regularly the violations that are happening there, and that is something that could radicalize them.”

By reliable estimates, ninety percent of those killed in drone strikes are entirely harmless people, making the program a singularly effective method of producing anti-American terrorism. “We kill four and create ten,” Bryant said during a November 19 press conference, referring to potential terrorists. “If you kill someone’s father, uncle or brother who had nothing to do with anything, their families are going to want revenge.”

http://www.globalresearch.ca/drone-...n-by-feds-for-exposing-us-murder/5491576


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Those sort of remarks, would give thoughts to the unfortunate problem of desensitization.

I believe that any political vote on this should be individually backed up with a first class honours degree in Middle Eastern History.

Does anyone in this country really understand how they think and operate out there ?


When reading news reports form various other countries from the Arab world and the Israeli newspapers, it would appear that this ISIS thing, which obviously does need to be addressed in the most effective way, but the result would not rid that area of trouble. Always another group to follow. That is my opinion only, but Israel are constantly in the thick of it, (unbeknown to our news reporting by the British channels.)

We don't support the act of death penalties in Arab countries, but we make friends of them ! We can't offer our services to fight Israel's battle but bet your bottom dollar we will sooner or later by getting dragged into a bigger arena.

Qatar is voicing off against Israel for offending 1.5 billion Muslims world wide due to the provocation of the Temple Mount. Qatar are backing Hamas and ISIS . (so they are obviously linked somehow)

I think we are using the French support against ISIS as an excuse.


It's truly dreadful and if we go in, we are in for the long haul. We can't take hundreds of thousands of Muslims into Europe and then side with Israel.

Is that why Israel have asked Russia to get involved ?

We are constantly being told Israel has a right to defend its borders. Well, so does everyone else and we'd be forgiven for not knowing where Israel's borders start and finish, these days. Constant land grabbing or it would appear that way.

Putin continues to supply weapons to Israel's enemies, Israel
supplied Russia with drone technology. Russia's interest in Syria is Tartus, a Russian Naval facility , so Putin is playing both hands too, and so it goes on. If Assad goes, how might Russia hold onto facilities at Tartus ?

Good old Britain, wants to be friends with everyone but it won't work. We can't be friends with all and stay alive for very much longer .

Maybe this mass exit of Syrians has been organised prior to what is becoming a massive invasion of their homeland. The various countries have known what is in the pipeline long before we might find out. Is that why no one went to the aid of Greece and Italy's problems with the migrant issue, and just left it to flow for as long as possible, without any intervention ?

In one way I hope that migration was acted out upon knowledge, as it will give more space for those who are trapped in the war torn communities and the possibility of getting shelter in the camps which have been overflowing to bursting. Maybe that's also why we have been warned the refugees could rise to 2 or even 3 million .

It always made me wonder why UAE started to conscript all 18 to 28 yrs olds into National Service, and only starting it 2 years ago...

....and where is Mr Blair ? Is he still calling the shots behind the scenes ? He wanted us to attack Syria four years ago. Dare I say it, maybe we should have.

And now this ;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34954233



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So - Corbyn reiterates Labour is not in favour of uk extending bombing but his MP's to get a free vote according to their concience, and they wont be sacked for doing so................surely the unspoken last word will be 'yet'. At Hes pushing for a 2 day debate. He wont get it , but maybe it will give a little more time for MP's to sway over to a 'no' to Mr Cameron especially if they are pressured by the public. (Sign the petition going around)

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If the Labour MP's do not represent the members then that is an undemocratic thing do and a completely different matter for not concurring with Corbyn's viewpoint.

TBH, I am surprised at how many people are against the Syrian bombing but the media is not being representative.

I believe the media should be reeled in, they are going way beyond expressing opinions. I've seen a few quotes recently that were from over 10 years ago but in the context of the news report they "appear" to be recent.

If the media wants to express an opinion it should be clearly marked as an editorial and not disguised as a news report.

How can democracy work when most information comes through media that is misrepresenting the facts.


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Nuke the lot of them !!!






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I was dithering to be honest much as I hate the idea of bombings,Ive heard convincing arguments on both sides but the scales tipped this morning when I saw that chap who lost most of his kids in an area being bombed, that hadnt held IS for 2 years. Could be propaganda of course, the pile of stones that was his house could have been anywhere, but it just emphasized my main worry that the bombing has no real joined up strategy behind it ,and we have no reliable unbiased sources of information, eg the below, (as well as the media DD)

"Yet, despite its central role in the savage civil war, the grandly named Syrian Observatory for Human Rights is virtually a one-man band. Its founder, Rami Abdul Rahman, 42, who fled Syria 13 years ago, operates out of a semidetached red-brick house on an ordinary residential street in this drab industrial city."

Algezeera researched his abundance of on the spot contacts for the intelligence he was collecting on the Syrian situation and found they were few and far between, and of no particularly reliable standing. Could be many such outfits which sound like they are giving weight bearing 'guidance'- on all sides.

So, Im going for what Im hoping is the course of least deaths and suffering . I do think we will get repercussions here regardless of what we do or dont do though . Bring on more checks and security in the Uk please to root the evil out.

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Will someone, who is in favour of bombing Syria, please explain to me how it will, as Mr Cameron believes, make us feel safer? Thank you.

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I have found out this morning that Germany is now deploying 1;200 troops to fight ISIL.looks like we will be heading for a civil war sooner than expected.

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Originally Posted by palemoon
Will someone, who is in favour of bombing Syria, please explain to me how it will, as Mr Cameron believes, make us feel safer? Thank you.


Can't do that , particularly when we receive various reports on how many ISIS members there are. We have had figures in the last couple of months 20,000, 30,000 , 75,000 and in 2014 claims by a Kurdish leader of 200,000. Does anyone really know ?
The only possible hope imo, is that bombing the ISIS training camps out there, will deter any who think they would like to join them in their mission. Ha ! Al Qaeda had a training camp in the Lake District in 2007. Not only but also, Crowborough in Kent, Tonbridge in Kent, New Forest, Berkshire and St Albans.
If any Britain was caught doing the same thing in an Arab State, we would be facing the death sentence. In times of war, and this is a war on our home ground,with or without our involvement in Syria, maybe traitors to our country if caught, should face similar. We all had our objections to Guantanamo Bay ,and maybe we should shut up sometimes.
I see Amnesty International are kicking off at Turkey for rounding up 1300 migrants, bound for Greece. Sending them to a repatriation centre and possibly deportation is referred to by Amnesty as "illegal as it is unconscionable".
No one will ever win this battle but with European multicultural societies, it could get nasty and troops might be needed at home instead.

If some of us lived in Syria, and the Syrians bombed Britain our homeland, how would we feel ?

Last edited by granny; 1st Dec 2015 10:48am.

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Possibly very slightly off topic but I wonder why the heads of the Muslim faith in this country have not collectively offered themselves to a national television audience and totally rejected any association with ISIS for either themselves or their believers....would not this sort of rejection from the spiritual heads possibly have a major effect on youngsters who otherwise might believe that ISIS is an acceptable extension of the Muslim religion

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Originally Posted by organiser
Possibly very slightly off topic but I wonder why the heads of the Muslim faith in this country have not collectively offered themselves to a national television audience and totally rejected any association with ISIS for either themselves or their believers....would not this sort of rejection from the spiritual heads possibly have a major effect on youngsters who otherwise might believe that ISIS is an acceptable extension of the Muslim religion


I have been saying the same thing, there has been no condemnation by the Muslim hierachy in this country, rudebox posted a list of names on another thread (Paris Bombings) made by some leaders mostly business people with a vested interest but no outcry from the rank and file no marches, banners not in my name etc, unlike in Paris were Muslims were openly condemning Isil, if we do start a bombing campaign you can bet there will be cries of outrage from the Muslim / Asian community, sadly what we have is a country within a country and a community within a community,with no wish to intergrate, we have preachers on the streets spouting all the ills of the world to the Kuffir (whilst they collect their benefits courtesy of the Kuffir) and the police stand by ( see ch4 British Muslim woman behind the veil)whilst they are allowed to undermine our country there will be no peace

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Some strong opinions here. Has anyone thought about lobbying your M.P, with your views?

http://stopwar.org.uk/resources/petitions/stop-the-bombing-of-syria-now-lobby-your-mp-now

There is also a demo in Liverpool tomorrow for those who are in opposition :

Wed 2nd December at 6pm

BBC Radio Merseyside
57 Hanover Street
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