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#992685 - 23rd Nov 2015 9:04pm Panorama --Grrughrrrrgruurr!
venice Offline

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Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2496
Loc: Wirral
Panorama---- The VW emissions issue ! Sick of it! If my OH screeches at the TV once more that petrol cars ALSO produce particulates and other such claims of little interest to me , I will have to strangle him!


Edited by Mark (24th Nov 2015 4:36pm)
Edit Reason: renamed

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#992690 - 23rd Nov 2015 10:12pm Re: Panorama --Grrughrrrrgruurr! [Re: venice]
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#992697 - 23rd Nov 2015 11:33pm Re: Panorama --Grrughrrrrgruurr! [Re: venice]
granny Offline

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Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 13664
Loc: Wirral
Originally Posted By: venice
Panorama---- The VW emissions issue ! Sick of it! If my OH screeches at the TV once more that petrol cars ALSO produce particulates and other such claims of little interest to me , I will have to strangle him!


Just stick his head up the exhaust.
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...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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#992698 - 23rd Nov 2015 11:34pm Re: Panorama --Grrughrrrrgruurr! [Re: venice]
fish5133 Online   content
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Registered: 22nd Mar 2010
Posts: 2719
Loc: Heswallish
Hey Venice --just go on at him about the differing properties of plain and self raising flour.

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#992700 - 23rd Nov 2015 11:44pm Re: Panorama --Grrughrrrrgruurr! [Re: venice]
Blueskier Offline
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Registered: 22nd Mar 2013
Posts: 194
Loc: Wallasey
I have an electric car so find it amazing at the uproar this has caused.
Everybody has known that the mpgs were miles of real world figures. Why would the emissions not also be way off.

Full disclosure, i also have a diesel car.

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#992710 - 24th Nov 2015 10:24am Re: Panorama --Grrughrrrrgruurr! [Re: venice]
Excoriator Online   content
Wise One

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 791
Loc: wirral
I don't believe battery cars or hybrids are the answer. The former have poor range and and take ages to charge, the latter still burn polluting fossil fuel.

Hydrogen cars are a much better idea. The hydrogen can be produced by electrolysing water using excess renewable power from wind and solar. There is already one hydrogen filling station that produces its hydrogen from its own wind turbine. ( http://www.itm-power.com/project/wind-hydrogen-development-platform ).

The cars have none of the practical disadvantages of electric cars, have ranges limited only by the tank size - typically 300 miles per fill - and are virtually maintenance free (Brakes and tyres). There are only two models available in the UK and they cost around 60,000, but one can expect this to fall rapidly if they become popular.

Cars on average do 40 miles a day, and this would need about 0.75 kg of hydrogen. To produces this using the most efficient electrolyser would require about 40kWh. A 3MW turbine can be expected to supply about a third of that - 1MW, or 24MWh - so in a day would produce enough hydrogen to meet the needs of 600 cars.

Some time back I read a piece by an American worried about where the water would come from. Unlike our country, theirs is chronically short of water, and the needs of cars would have a significant impact on it in some parts. But he seemed to have forgotten that the exhaust of hydrogen cars is water which could easily be collected and recycled. One kg of hydrogen would produce 9kg of water, which could easily be stored on board and returned to the filling station!

In line with the 'full disclosure' policy of Blueskier I admit to having a Medium sized diesel and a small petrol car. Both have their disadvantages, and I can't wait for hydrogen cars to arrive at a cost I can afford (about 10p at the moment!)

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#992720 - 24th Nov 2015 1:37pm Re: Panorama --Grrughrrrrgruurr! [Re: venice]
venice Offline

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Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2496
Loc: Wirral
Yay, I survived the night with the topic moved on as to how much he hates Donald Trump ! Ifeel far more patient today grin
OH actually is along the same thought lines as both you Blueskier, and Excoriator too. Hes been following the progress of hydrogen cars with great interest. When they do 5 seaters with a decent range on one realistic tank size, I reckon he'll be in there! Bit of waiting time yet .

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#992734 - 24th Nov 2015 3:50pm Re: Panorama --Grrughrrrrgruurr! [Re: venice]
Blueskier Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 22nd Mar 2013
Posts: 194
Loc: Wallasey
Hi Excoriator, been here before i believe.
Venice, hydrogen is the fuel of the future no doubt. And always will be.
Electric cars are here, now and relatively cheap.

Now about this flour.......

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#992779 - 24th Nov 2015 7:51pm Re: Panorama --Grrughrrrrgruurr! [Re: venice]
Excoriator Online   content
Wise One

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 791
Loc: wirral
I'm more interested in the technology as a way of storing intermittent energy. Cars, I find rather boring.

Although you have a choice of two production models here in the UK at the moment and a third one coming out soon. All are five seaters I believe, but all are expensive. The first two are around 50 to 60 grand. The Honda Clarity fuel cell will be about 40 grand.

Honda is planning on developing a home electrolysis unit so you can manufacture hydrogen yourself with power from your solar panels or mains. They have evidently recognised that the lack of filling stations is a problem for sales, and solved it by eliminating the need for them!

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#992842 - 25th Nov 2015 3:08pm Re: Panorama --Grrughrrrrgruurr! [Re: venice]
Moonstar Offline

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Registered: 2nd Jul 2011
Posts: 1240
Loc: Wirral
Can we extrapolate this hydrogen system to use in the home?

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#992844 - 25th Nov 2015 3:43pm Re: Panorama --Grrughrrrrgruurr! [Re: Moonstar]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9665
Loc: Birkenhead
Originally Posted By: Moonstar
Can we extrapolate this hydrogen system to use in the home?

You could, but its doubtful if there is any advantage, a car has requirements for portability, weight and size these are not as critical in a home so other solutions remain advantageous.
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When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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