WikiWirral Wirral's Biggest Online Forum
Forum Stats
12230 Members
65 Forums
72762 Topics
980692 Posts
39 posts in the last 24hrs
Max Online: 7831 @ 8th Apr 2013 4:18pm
Who's Online - Click Me
95 registered (11kendo, 18 invisible), 1704 Guests and 205 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Social Media : Follow Us


(Views 7days)This Weeks Most Read
Doris is on her way 1398
USB to wall socket 455
Internet Explorer Not Working 443
Is This ART ? 440
Dangerous Tumble Dryers 391
Chef's knife. 388
Wirral Bus Review 289
roofers 284
Aerial engineer 259
Tranmere Rovers 197
New General Forums
Story
by venice
Yesterday at 12:10 AM
Nigel Farage speaks at the CPAC.
by snowhite
24th Feb 2017 6:28pm
Is This ART ?
by granny
23rd Feb 2017 9:56am
Wirral track renewal
by snowhite
22nd Feb 2017 2:42pm
New Wirral History
Seeking old pictures of Egerton Street area, Birkenhead
by yoller
19th Feb 2017 7:53pm
TS Indefatigable
by granny
18th Feb 2017 3:32pm
RIP : Chris Kay
by granny
31st Aug 2016 9:25am
Children's home on the Overchurch
by xleahx
26th Apr 2011 7:01pm
423 Archers, Wirral Mark Rake, Wirral, Merseyside
by derekdwc
13th Sep 2009 10:50pm
Forum Tips
Photo Gallery Forums
Birkenhead Transport Museum 24th Feb 2017
fireworks on the Mersey last night
Topic Replies
St Gabriel's Convent, Liverpool
by diggingdeeper
48 minutes 3 seconds ago
TS Indefatigable
by granny
Today at 01:23 AM
USB to wall socket
by Beethoven
Yesterday at 11:00 PM
Croxteth Hall (and park)
by diggingdeeper
Yesterday at 09:15 PM
Large hgv needed to move 32ft x 10ft steel con
by futurepast
Yesterday at 06:32 PM
Samsung NC10 Notebook PC
by _Steve_
Yesterday at 05:55 PM
2x Brit Floyd tickets 3rd March City entrance
by _Steve_
Yesterday at 05:52 PM
What song are you listening to?
by snowshoes
Yesterday at 05:14 PM
Aluminium Ladders
by jaymc
Yesterday at 05:07 PM
February
M Tu W Th F Sa Su
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28
Recent Posts : What's On ?
Croxteth Hall (and park)
by diggingdeeper
Yesterday at 09:15 PM
Lion Salt Works/Weaver Hall Museum
by venice
19th Feb 2017 12:19pm
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#984735 - 23rd Sep 2015 8:46am vw cheats on diesel tests
Martin1943 Offline
Addict

Registered: 26th Jan 2011
Posts: 252
Loc: Moreton
Well whoop-i-do, official fuel performance tests do not match those in the real world. I think we always knew that. Now it has been discovered that VWs diesel tests in the US were as much as four times better than the proper result we must ask a relevant question perhaps. Are VW engines much worse than all the others, or have a large number of other engines been cheating, all over the world? It appears that VW engine management systems are employed in a large proportion of other manufacturers. Are these as a group better in performance also? Is the software in their cars also cheating, all over the world perhaps?

Top
AutoWirral : Advertising
Click me for more Information......

WikiWirral Numbers : Between 150 and 200 New Members Every Month. With Over 3,500 unique visits and 35,000 Page Views each day. Average +500 Search Engines Daily and over 1,000,000 Million Page views a Month. Advertising from £20 . Click Me
#984742 - 23rd Sep 2015 9:31am Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Mark Online   Reading


Wiki Master

Registered: 9th Nov 2003
Posts: 21011
Loc: Wirral
This could just be the start of it they say on the News.

They were saying on the News the American test measures different chemicals via emissions test, and its stricter than our UK emissions test.

I can see others falling foul.
_________________________
My Avatar images are all from the Wirral Gallery.Click Me
Wow Wirral History is coming along Great! Wirral History

we get +200 new members a month now smile

Top
#984783 - 23rd Sep 2015 1:01pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Martin1943 Offline
Addict

Registered: 26th Jan 2011
Posts: 252
Loc: Moreton
It was discovered because a pressure group in the States was trying to convince European authorities that diesels could be as clean as petrol because VW tests in USA showed this. The question really is "how many of our cars are cheating?"
It's all a fraud, tests in UK are carried out by the manufacturers representative group, the results bear no relationship to actuality and yet it has suited all to continue that practice, except the end user.
In the 1950s most family cars did around 30-35 mpg. It's not much better now (although cars are faster and more powerful than then, average journey times are very similar). The question should by "why has no one taken action before?"

Top
#984789 - 23rd Sep 2015 1:55pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9805
Loc: Birkenhead
Still don't get this, all cars are designed to meet the emission test standards in the different countries - VW's clearly did!

It there is a problem then the tests themselves were lacking and I don't see how VW can be blamed for that.

How does the car detect it is being tested, I can think of lots of ways (air flow, motion, steering inactive, loading etc) but all lead to the test not being realistic. If you want to test for normal deriving then you stick the probe up the exhaust and go for a drive.

The one and only really sneaky cheat that I can think of is using the car's GPS to identify you are at a testing centre.

This is like being breathalysed and passing but then being prosecuted because you cheated by not having a drink - you passed the test but are still guilty???
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

Top
#984793 - 23rd Sep 2015 2:24pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Excoriator Online   content
Wise One

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 822
Loc: wirral
I think you have to disable the airbags for fear that someone bumping into it on test, or slamming a door whilst its on the test bed will trigger them.

I think there are other things that have to be disabled too.

M'learned friends will argue about it for years, but the real damage is to the reputation of VW and the damage to its sales.

Top
#984795 - 23rd Sep 2015 2:38pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9805
Loc: Birkenhead
I remember the airbag trick from some years ago, doing a bit of digging I found ...

Quote:
The EPA refers to what it calls a ‘switch’ that enabled the car’s ECM to know when it is being tested on a rolling road: “The ‘switch’ senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on various inputs including the position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine’s operation and barometric pressure. These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes.


If the test doesn't bother doing a road test as well then I would say the test is lacking.

VW aren't going to be the only one that are doing similar, I bet VW are busy testing other marques of cars at this moment in time.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

Top
#984807 - 23rd Sep 2015 3:38pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
dustymclean Offline

Old Hand

Registered: 18th Sep 2013
Posts: 314
Loc: birkenhead
The fiddle was written into the cars software it knows when the hardware is connected for any test or investigation. It would have to be written in with the sole intention to deceive, by programmers with instructions to do so.

Top
#984816 - 23rd Sep 2015 6:13pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Martin1943 Offline
Addict

Registered: 26th Jan 2011
Posts: 252
Loc: Moreton
The car software test wheel rotation. When it detect two wheels not turning ant-skid software kicks in, It is that signal which is used to initiate the anti-pollution cheat.
Don't know how it copes with four wheel drive though!
Got this from the Times

Top
#984840 - 23rd Sep 2015 9:01pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
buddy Online   content
Forum Veteran

Registered: 18th Sep 2008
Posts: 5010
Loc: South Wirral

Top
#984855 - 23rd Sep 2015 9:56pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Vanmanone Online   Reading

Forum Guardian

Registered: 5th May 2010
Posts: 3418
Loc: The Rectory Eastham
All said an done,we have come a long way with diesels with clever injectors that are capable of injecting upto 6 times per cycle burning all the fuel in a controlled burn instead of dumping the lot in one go making loads of noise an dumping unburnt fuel out the exhaust,remember the cans of easy start we use to go through snob

Top
#984857 - 23rd Sep 2015 10:08pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
fish5133 Online   content
Forum Master

Registered: 22nd Mar 2010
Posts: 2824
Loc: Heswallish
'So what are the garages doing during mot testing.are they working to a different standard . i had a car fail mot on emissions..had to squirt some stuff up the carb to get it to pass.

Top
#984862 - 23rd Sep 2015 10:48pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
diggingdeeper Offline

Wiki Guardian

Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9805
Loc: Birkenhead
In America most States have an Annual Safety and Emissions Test.

Our MOT doesn't test the emissions to the same levels as the Type Approval that manufacturers have to adhere to. The MOT is primarily a safety test but basic environmental tests are also performed. In petrol cars the emissions are only tested at idle for the MOT.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

Top
#984894 - 24th Sep 2015 1:11pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Excoriator Online   content
Wise One

Registered: 21st Jan 2010
Posts: 822
Loc: wirral
I had a DPF filter that kept on being choked up. The garage couldn't find the cause and mentioned teh possibility of simply removing the DPF. I refused to do this and the fault was found to be a split hose and cured. It was also explained to me that the car would still pass it's MOT emission test, even without the DPF. Suspicious or not?

Since then, I have noticed a number of cars like mine emitting a cloud of smoke on accelerating. I assume this is because they have no DPF, having had it removed.

I think spot testing should be used to check emissions, with heavy fines for this practice.

Top
#984935 - 24th Sep 2015 5:03pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
Blueskier Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 22nd Mar 2013
Posts: 194
Loc: Wallasey
This is a different test than the economy test right?
Seems like people are mixing the 2 up.
A bigger concern for people is the blatantly false mpg figures. The US have a different system for rating this and seem much more closely matched to real world miles achieved.

Top
#984998 - 25th Sep 2015 3:03pm Re: vw cheats on diesel tests [Re: Martin1943]
StuyMac Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 24th Nov 2003
Posts: 12002
Loc: Wirralshire
In the UK, the emissions test for a diesel car is a plain smoke test. A probe is inserted up the exhaust, and the engine is revved - the smoke level in the gasses are then measured.

The diesel smoke test is the same for every diesel car, no matter if its 30 years old or 3 years old - the same smoke limit applies.

Newer cars with DPF's fitted produce virtually zero smoke, but older cars without produce more, there is no cut off year where the smoke level should be lower.

In a petrol car, you have a CAT test. Everything post 1993 (IIRC) needs to pass a cat test, which is much tigher than that on a car without a CAT fitted (pre 1993). On a diesel there is no cut off year, so all diesels are tested to the same limits.

Emission wise, a poorly running new car which should produce no smoke, can pass a the test producing as much smoke as a dirtier 30 year old car. Although modern diesels have become cleaner, the MOT test (unlike that for petrol cars) hasnt evolved.
_________________________


What If There Were No Hypothetical Questions?

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  StuyMac 
Random Wirral Images

Click to View Topic.
Newest Topics
Large hgv needed to move 32ft x 10ft steel con
by futurepast
Yesterday at 06:32 PM
Croxteth Hall (and park)
by diggingdeeper
26th Feb 2017 10:08pm
St Gabriel's Convent, Liverpool
by diggingdeeper
26th Feb 2017 5:58pm
USB to wall socket
by venice
26th Feb 2017 1:04pm
Tranmere Rovers
by cools
25th Feb 2017 9:17pm
For Sale & Free
Aluminium Ladders
by jaymc
Yesterday at 05:07 PM
Blaupunkt 32" tv
by jaylow
25th Feb 2017 3:04pm
2 x Sum 41 tickets Manchester 25/02
by turnip
24th Feb 2017 7:47am
Sony Smartwatch 2
by Mike_Hoylake
23rd Feb 2017 9:25pm
Brother printer
by saltytom
23rd Feb 2017 11:02am
Featured Member
Registered: 10th Mar 2010
Posts: 76
Newest Members
chaptronix, chrisjon, Mike_White, HELENmichelle, catchthepigeon_
12230 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
New Wirral Info
Large hgv needed to move 32ft x 10ft steel con
by futurepast
Yesterday at 06:32 PM
Croxteth Hall (and park)
by diggingdeeper
26th Feb 2017 10:08pm
Removal of Shed Timber
by Julie64
25th Feb 2017 1:31pm
Aerial engineer
by ponytail
23rd Feb 2017 6:01pm
roofers
by thisledous
23rd Feb 2017 4:44pm
News : New Topics
Wirral Bus Review
by Norton
24th Feb 2017 11:42am
Dangerous Tumble Dryers
by diggingdeeper
23rd Feb 2017 2:03pm
Doris is on her way
by granny
22nd Feb 2017 8:43pm
Hezballah
by venice
17th Feb 2017 11:15am
On-street parking charges dropped
by oldpm01
15th Feb 2017 9:10am
New Enthusiast Forums
St Gabriel's Convent, Liverpool
by diggingdeeper
26th Feb 2017 5:58pm
USB to wall socket
by venice
26th Feb 2017 1:04pm
Tranmere Rovers
by cools
25th Feb 2017 9:17pm
Chef's knife.
by Beethoven
23rd Feb 2017 12:39pm
irish music entertainer for St Patrick's night
by kazaroo
22nd Feb 2017 3:07pm
(Views 24hrs)Trending Newest Topics
Large hgv needed to move 32ft x 10ft steel con 76
Wirral Sunrise Sunset
Sunrise Tue 7:00am
Sunset Tue 5:48pm
Local Time Tue 3:00am
WikiWirral Can . . . .
Advertising Click me
To Advertise with
Wikiwirral Click Me