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#958505 - 17th Aug 2015 12:09am Wars
granny Offline

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Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 13668
Loc: Wirral
When it comes to 'wars' , they never seem easy to understand, particularly when we do not know the region or the governments.

However, can someone explain why the Syrian Government are bombing their own people ? Another one in the last 24hrs.

Colonel Gadaffi was slaughtered because he threatened to kill his people in Benghazi (I think), with assistance from various countries, including Britain. Why can Syria do this ? I really don't understand all this and I would love someone to explain what is actually going on, in the simplest way ,please.


Edited by granny (17th Aug 2015 12:10am)
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#958507 - 17th Aug 2015 3:07am Re: Wars [Re: granny]
diggingdeeper Offline

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Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9668
Loc: Birkenhead
Religion being manipulated by oil hungry nations.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#958521 - 17th Aug 2015 9:50am Re: Wars [Re: granny]
granny Offline

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Registered: 29th Jun 2011
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This map, makes the layout of the region more understandable.
Not sure your explanation in completely correct DD. I still don't understand any of it , there are so many different groups of people involved, it seems to be like total suicide of a nation.

_________________________
...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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#958524 - 17th Aug 2015 11:36am Re: Wars [Re: granny]
casper Online   content
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Registered: 13th May 2012
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Basically it is classed as a revolution?rebellion against the Government which has turned into a civil war, not unlike the Spanish civil war or the North v South in America, each faction has its supporters the government uses mercenaries, the others are supported by Isis and others, the Assad government could be propped up by the West but fear being embroiled in another fiasco, because of the Isis involvement, who knows what else is in the mix religion, tribalism, oil, this is just a simple analogy, hope it helps granny

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#958529 - 17th Aug 2015 2:14pm Re: Wars [Re: granny]
diggingdeeper Offline

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Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9668
Loc: Birkenhead
To show how much it oil based - ISIS are producing more oil than the rest of the country, they have also grabbed various other assets such as the phosphate mines.

What is interesting is while there are statements saying the ISIS can't sell the phosphate - they ARE selling oil. What is even more interesting is that while we are being told ISIS and Kurds are opposing groups - most of the ISIS oil is being sold using the Kurds as middlemen.

As usual, we are being fed a lot of information that may or may not be true and its very difficult to know what is really going on.

My general rule is to ignore the noise, always look at the money.
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#958535 - 17th Aug 2015 4:21pm Re: Wars [Re: diggingdeeper]
granny Offline

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Registered: 29th Jun 2011
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Loc: Wirral
Is it Iraqi Kurds or Syrian Kurds who are acting as middlemen with ISIS ?

Just been trying to piece a few things together (virtually impossible ) with regard to all the different areas controlled by so many different groups.

ISIS first came about by joining Al Quaeda in 2004, following the Iraq invasion, but in 2014 Al Quaeda cut all contacts with it. ISIS then joined forces with al-Nusra Front and became ISIL. Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. Looking up 'Levant' sees some interesting historical facts .

This is still so confusing. Taking each region with different off shoots of Muslim, a bit like Catholic / Protestant did into Church of England, Puritan, Methodists, United Reform etc. it seems to boil down to the difference between Sunni and Shia origins. With that in mind as the situation is now, it was not that factor, (I don't think) which originally triggered the Syrian war.

So I will have to see what else there is , but whatever comes up will not change the on going troubles in that area now..and I still don't understand why the Syrian Government continue to bomb their own, who are not necessarily the bad guys.

Ismali's belong to the Shia

Druze are a mixed faith of Unitarians to include Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, Pythagoreanism, Ismailism, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism

Alawites belong to Shia and President Assad is an Alawite.

Kurds are an ethinic group

It's like a hot bed of baked potatoes, apart from the Iraqi invasion, I have yet to understand why Syria has been drawn into this situation, with the present Assad taking Presidency after his father died in 2000 (I think). This of course is the failure of an undemocratic nation and why we as a nation removed the Royalty from being supreme rulers and introduced a Parliament. It doesn't have to be 'royals' who have complete control, as we see it can be any family for generations, once the democratic principle is disposed of.

It is of interest but so much confusion, covering a wide area in the middle east.


Edited by granny (17th Aug 2015 4:24pm)
_________________________
...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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#958554 - 17th Aug 2015 7:24pm Re: Wars [Re: granny]
venice Offline

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Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2497
Loc: Wirral
Ive got a headache now Granny ! doh

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#958558 - 17th Aug 2015 8:04pm Re: Wars [Re: granny]
colette_clarke Offline
Member

Registered: 4th Nov 2012
Posts: 65
Loc: Wirral
I am even more confused now

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#958562 - 17th Aug 2015 9:17pm Re: Wars [Re: granny]
diggingdeeper Offline

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Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9668
Loc: Birkenhead
Originally Posted By: granny
Is it Iraqi Kurds or Syrian Kurds who are acting as middlemen with ISIS ?


Both I think, ISIS oil from Iraqi and Syrian goes through the Kurds to Turkey and Iran via Syria.

The big problem I guess is that this oil is cheap and undercutting other prices.

There seems to be a lot of emphasis that the Americans "put" Maliki into power in Iraq which was bound to cause problems and could have been the trigger point for ISIS.

The whole thing is too complicated for me, too many factions and loads of dis-information. I'll stick to watching the $$$
_________________________
In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Socrates

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#958565 - 17th Aug 2015 10:27pm Re: Wars [Re: granny]
granny Offline

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Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 13668
Loc: Wirral
Having scoured as much as I can and tried to reduce to hardly anything, this is what it appears to be. Cannot even think about how it has now developed and therefore not about to even consider unravelling. In fact ,it is probably completely above our heads anyway.
This is how it seems :

A country of turbulence since the second world war. An independent republic in 1946 .Democratic rule ended in 1949 with coup followed by coup d'e tat and yet another coup . Instability has obviously gone on for years .

So far as i can make out, after President Hafez al-Assad rule from 1971 to his death in 2000, when his son Bashar al-Assad the present President of Syria took the helm, not much had changed in all those years. Bashar al-Assad attempted to bring about a form of democracy, but there were secret meetings of political forums going on in private houses between various political activists followed by the Damascus Spring in 2001 when 10 political activists were arrested and imprisoned after a call for democracy and civil disobedience.

Certain reformists in Parlaiment were getting fed up as change was not happening and President Bashar al-Assad had failed to deliver on his promises.

The people in the poorest areas in Syria were becoming discontent with drought and poverty. Mainly conservative Sunni's areas. By 2011 Syria was facing high youth unemployment, as well as rises in living costs and deterioration of the standard of living.

Human Rights were also questionable. No freedom of speech , torture, poor prison conditions etc.

In 2004 riots took place in the Syrian Kurdish areas due to the fact that since 1969 the Kurdish Syrian had never been given citizenship .

So it looks as if the split in the different ethinic groups were starting then.

In 2010, there had been the uprising in Tunisia and Egypt which encouraged the protests in Syria in 2011.

Protest demands such as releasing all political prisoners were obviously not going to be met.

April 8th 2011 protests had taken place in 10 cities
April 22nd same in 20 cities
April 25th the Syrian Army started a series of large-scale deadly military attacks on towns, using tanks, infantry carriers, and artillery, leading to hundreds of civilian deaths. By the end of May 2011, 1,000 civilians and 150 soldiers and policemen had been killed and thousands detained among the arrested were many students, liberal activists and human rights advocates.

Iraq and others had lost control of their borders and what happened next ......well all hell let loose.

Basically it would appear that President Bashir al-Assad was no fit person to take the roll on board and he certainly doesn't want to give it up now either.

After disecting a lot of information about this, and admittedly done some copy and pasting , rather than re-typing everything , this maybe a fairly simple summary but there is no doubt that the Iraq war was the de stabilizing influence in Syria and other regions, but I blame the Germans laugh

I'm still not sure if Al Qaeda were wanting the same end or if they were just promoting hate and wanting to take revenge on the West, in particular the Americans. Of course they are still in the equation, just attached to different groups now.

Just shows how political unrest can cause such a dreadful situation when a government looses control and other extreme groups move in once weakness shows.

Does any of this make sense ? Damn it, I do try hard and hoping Venice and Collette-Clarke can dispose of the anadin now.

Good luck !
_________________________
...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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#958575 - 18th Aug 2015 8:01am Re: Wars [Re: granny]
venice Offline

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Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2497
Loc: Wirral
Very neat parcel thanks Granny ! Plus I was wondering why we are'nt more involved , but I suppose the west could only join in legally with the support of the security council of the UN but that cant happen because the Russians who are on the security council are supportive of Assad and would veto any attempt to fight against him.

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#958576 - 18th Aug 2015 8:14am Re: Wars [Re: granny]
venice Offline

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Registered: 21st Jul 2011
Posts: 2497
Loc: Wirral
ps I also think extremist groups like ISIS swop about a bit with their fighting support, making it hard to see who is against who , because as long as complete mayhem and fear rules, that is the best environment for them in which to further their grip. Any route to an end etc.
(I wasnt meaning in my previous post that I wanted us to get involved by the way).

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#958601 - 18th Aug 2015 1:27pm Re: Wars [Re: granny]
BandyCoot Offline

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Registered: 7th Dec 2008
Posts: 5346
Loc: Birkenhead
Tribes.
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Birkenhead........ God's own Room 101.

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#958602 - 18th Aug 2015 2:40pm Re: Wars [Re: granny]
jimbob Offline

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Registered: 26th Nov 2008
Posts: 1535
Loc: Birkenhead
You need to go back to the end of the 1st world war when the Vast Ottoman empire was carved up by the French and British, lines where drawn on the map to decide who looked after which section of so vast an area. Done in the hope that never again would there be such a conflict as what had just ended
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#958628 - 19th Aug 2015 12:21am Re: Wars [Re: jimbob]
granny Offline

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Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 13668
Loc: Wirral
This is really interesting Jimbob. Gives maps going back thousands of years bringing them up to date and how areas have changed. Just click on any red dots, or the timeline below.

Nice to play about with anyway. At school the world map seemed a lot different to now. Names changes, split countries and different capitol cities in such a short period. No doubt the UK will have to find a new name one day soon too.

http://www.timemaps.com/history/world-1960ad
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...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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