Anyone any ideas what might happen with Greece ? Nobody seems to have any idea how it's going to impact. With every sympathy for the Greek people, the Greek banks haven't got much left and many of the Greeks are virtually dead on the streets.
Should they say YES or NO ?
It wouldn't be surprising if the vote is NO, Tsipras will go to Mr Putin for financial support. That's just a thought and possibly ridiculous. No doubt someone will put that theory to bed .
Last edited by granny; 3rd Jul 201512:15am.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Not so ridiculous granny, its very smart if you look at it, Communist money and influence in Greece if the threat was realised, Putin sabre rattling, its something that Europe doesn't want to happen, there are talks now to retain some of the remainder of the BOAR in Germany, I think it may be a threat but who knows? desperate people desperate times, I hope things work out for them, at least they are making a stand against the banks.
Casper; do you mean BAOR? if so, I didn't know it still existed. Granny; I think that the idea of a tie-up between Tsipras and Putin is a real possibility.
There's a warning headline in the financial Post today;
Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras learning EU’s No. 1 rule: Don’t mess with Angela Merkel..
These are possibly some of the truest of words written!
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Yes Chris your right BAOR it is, it doesn't exist as such but we still have a presence there, Putin is a dangerous man, Stalinist Russia was as bad if not worse than the Nazis, and I think there still remains a hard core who would wish for the old days.
A global economy run by our American/Israeli friends could be a very cold place in the long run for Greece.No such thing as a free lunch and Putin will want his pound of flesh.Greece needs to realize like ourselves, you can,t eat high off the hog unless you pay the man.Staying in is the real deal and I think they will.
The Greeks told porkies about their fincances to get into the Euro. They consider it a duty to evade tax. They're better off leaving the euro and taking the hit for a while and get themselves back on song with the drachma, it'll be painful but at least they'll be taking the hit and not us. They're blackmailing Europe with the threat to go over to the East. Tspiras was the only one laughing his head off coming out of meetings, that must tell someone something. By the way, I like the Greeks, it's their polititians that are shoit. As an afterhought, they don't go around on donkies any more,they drive BMW's and Mercs, just a thought.
Whilst the Greek Governments have been a party to its own downfall the other organisations have not only been a party to what has happened, they actively encouraged it and none can plead ignorance to exactly what was happening.
Goldman Sachs JPMorgan Chase The International Monetary Fund (IMF) The European Central Bank (ECB) The European Commission (EU)
I see Europe using a smaller country as an example of how it can flex its muscles or more importantly Germany controlling a lot of the shots. Merkel is merely the Chancellor or Germany - how many other Chancellors do you see controlling other European nations?
Its hard to believe that in 2014 Greece was the fastest growing economy in Europe and unlike others was out of recession - and then.....
This might be something to do with Greek imports, Greece's biggest imports were from Germany (2008) - but then Russia became the biggest importer (2012), mainly due to reduce imports from Germany and Italy, those imports nearly halving.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
My knowledge of their imports and exports was probably nil, apart than knowing that Germany exports more to Greece than the other way around.
This site is informative and I wonder if the 'oil' is also a significant factor as to why they were allowed to join and why the game playing continues.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
And Europe also imports more to the UK than we export to them, it's a giant Ponzy scheme but it's the best we've got. I'd rather do it the way it is than do it the pinko way. All on the same wages my arris.
My thoughts are they leave and set up a closed currency which they can control or they need to get in to bed with someone else, Russia or China maybe? They can't just continue this borrow mentality, they have so much debt for a nation of 11m people repayment is impossible and would last forever!
The people of Greece are at the forefront of a fight for a world in which people come before profit.
Greece has been a victim of some of the most brutal austerity of modern times, suffering mass unemployment, rocketing suicide rates, murder, HIV infection, depression, drug use, and homelessness. Greece’s health system is being dismantled while food banks are proliferating.
Will you stand with Greece’s people today?
What’s worse is that this suffering was avoidable. On Monday, Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz said:
“I can think of no depression, ever, that has been so deliberate and had such catastrophic consequences” (1)
Like so many Southern countries before it, Greece’s people have been forced into a programme of austerity and privatisation in the name of ‘repaying a debt’.
But the debt is not being repaid by those who created it. Greece’s ‘bailout’ flowed straight into the European banks that caused the crisis as I explained on Radio 4’s Moral Maze (2). They never reached Greece’s people, and so it’s no wonder that Greece’s debt burden has not fallen but sky rocketed.
That’s why Greece’s government is challenging the brutal austerity which is being pushed on them. It is opening up the economy to democratic oversight and participation. It has called a referendum this Sunday on whether or not to accept a deeper austerity package being pushed by its ‘creditors’, a move which has been welcome by a UN independent human rights expert (3).
But this has infuriated European officials, politicians and the media, who are now working to undermine the government and destabilise Greece.
Stand with the Greek people and join over 25,000 others
What is Greece’s alternative? Greece’s parliament has set up a debt audit, to look at who is really responsible for the country’s debt and to try to bring to justice those who acted in bad faith. They are proposing radical changes to the tax system to make it fairer and to clamp down on corruption. And they are asking for large-scale debt cancellation, such as Germany received after the Second World War, when it was told that recovery was the most important priority.
These are not ‘extreme’ policies. But European and Greek elites are now trying to scare Greece’s people into voting for more austerity.
We want to send a message of support and hope to Greece’s people. Will you stand with the people of Greece against the policies of austerity?
This is not just about Greece. if we want to live in a world where people’s rights are put before the interests of the banks, where debt crises can never again be used to further impoverish the poorest, where ordinary people have more democratic control over their economy, we need to stand with Greece.
Could Greece do both ? Say Yes, but also get into bed with Putin by accepting money from him to get themselves sorted , in exchange for a Russian base in Greece? That would send the Americans spare !
Could Greece do both ? Say Yes, but also get into bed with Putin by accepting money from him to get themselves sorted , in exchange for a Russian base in Greece? That would send the Americans spare !
The EU/ECB/IMF bottled out big time when this almost happened with Cyprus a couple of years ago.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Difficult to say, Russia is feeling the squeeze with the low oil price and sanctions so won't want to take on more financial undertakings. On the other hand Russia, EU and USA are playing a lot of smarty-point games so Greece would be quite a coup for Russia.
I'm pretty sure the EU will back out for other reasons - they have done the posturing show of strength, if Greece does totally collapse it will play against the EU in many ways and could start the demise of Europe - I guess this is what Greece is betting on and the EU are trying not to play into their hands even though they will in the end.
Greece has got a massive military for the size of country (probably the biggest) and yet I've heard very little in them being asked to make savings from that so it makes you wonder if this is a big play act being played out for the media and propaganda.
So much doesn't make sense that I'm wondering what is going on, whatever it is, I think we will have to wait 60 years to find out.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
60 years ? Why , whats the particular slow burner you're referring to ?I would have thought that the direction things are taking will be revealed within months?
60 years until the truth comes out, what is said in public will be part of the negotiations and is unlikely to represent what actually happened.
It wouldn't be the first agreement that's not been held up by the settlement but after the settlement has been sorted the negotiations as to what information is given to the media so that nobody loses face or which nominal person is to be sacrificed.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Ah yes, the truth of negotiations , of course, I agree - the REAL 'why' we see what we will see. Was thinking you meant we wouldnt see effects of the decisions until then.
Half Greece's problem is that they can't move forward into the 21st century. They consistently claim, Greece was the birth of civilisation in Europe. Tspiras said the same thing last night in his 'Eva Peron style' speech in Syntagma Square.
They're still munching over the fact that Germany owes them from WW11 and are still entombed in 3000 years of history. They have never been on 'the up' . Sitting all day and wondering how they can each make 'the money', displaying a motion where their thumb swirls around, against their first two fingers on the right hand.
I like the Greeks, and one half of me is saying, 'well done' tell the world what you think of Europe's ideas, let us share in your misery. On the other hand, if they vote 'NO', what do they face? Worse than they have for a long period ,I should imagine. The drachma will be useless and worthless now, and I would hate to see those people suffer anymore. It could be a long lonely road as even though they have many trading partners worldwide, the drachma will not help them.
This EU was supposed to make us united and supported after WW11, well it's still not happening and we appear to give more visible support to nations outside the union than we do for our members at the moment, and I don't believe that any of those people who sit in positions of such power and might, have the ability to run the show. It's running away with them, because at the end of the day they are humans behaving like robots ,dealing with, alongside and against massive, uncontrollable, corruption. Therefore, if we wish for Greeks to upset the apple cart, I hope they vote 'NO' and also hope USA keep their nose out .
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Lenders' proposals: Key sticking points ◾VAT (sales tax): Alexis Tsipras accepts a new three-tier system, but wants to keep 30% discount on the Greek islands' VAT rates. Lenders want the islands' discounts scrapped ◾Pensions: Ekas top-up grant for some 200,000 poorer pensioners will be phased out by 2020 - as demanded by lenders. But Mr Tsipras says no to immediate Ekas cut for the wealthiest 20% of Ekas recipients ◾Defence: Mr Tsipras says reduce ceiling for military spending by €200m in 2016 and €400m in 2017. Lenders call for €400m reduction - no mention of €200m
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
10% military cut sounds reasonable, however the knock on from that will be quite a large increase in unemployement.
VAT cut for the Islands will be a problem - a lot of foreign nationals have retired there and if costs increase there could be an exodus to Spanish Islands and others.
Pension cuts is very worrying, the subsidy is essential for some. The pension problem appears to be brought on by the Greek early retirement scheme at 45, but this can make economic sense - keeping unemployment lower especially in the younger generations and instead of paying people unemployment they are topping up pensions which could work out cheaper.
I can see Greece ending up with a massive unemployment problem which won't aid the recovery one little bit.
Interesting that the IMF is effectively siding with a "NO" vote at the moment and appear to be a bit hacked off with EU/ECB rather than Greece.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
The money that the ECB has given Greece over the last 5 yesrs has never gone to the people of Greece. It has gone straight back out again to repay Germany and France.
Also, Greece has the most far left Government in the EU, and it's not known how to really deal with it.
That, in my opinion , has a lot to do with the way Europe has been 'managed'. So far as I know, most of the EU members are either centre left or centre right. Probably why the unions have been fixed and probably manipulation for eventual unification in all places. Everyone the same and lead by the President of Europe. Greece is certainly a thorn in their side at the moment and whilst the Greek people vote, there are probably a few backroom boys in Brussels, drawing up a plan in order to stop this sort rebellion from a left wing member state ever being able to happen again.
'you are in my class, and you will do as you are told'
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Germany have a nice little hoard of Deutschmarks, which they are supposedly keeping for nostalgic reason.
6.6 billion euros plus some Germans are shopping with the currency again. Lots of it about apparently found in boxes and under mattresses etc. Germany never set a deadline for exchanging its old money for euros despite it converting 13 years ago. Maybe they could have given Greece some advice.
Very strange, cunning or crafty, (choose your own word to suit) when everyone else had their currency expire.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
The vote doesn't really change anything, without bailout money the country will shut down very fast, all imports and exports will virtually stop, people inside the country won't have any money.
I wanted a no vote for Greece's own pride and solidarity but in reality I hoped it would be a yes vote for their own sakes as this gave more room for re-negotiation.
Like has been said by others, after WW1 Germany was in financial ruin which effectively caused WW2, after WW2 we realised we had to bail out Germany big time otherwise the cycle would repeat and lead to WW3. A destitute country does nobody any favours and certainly won't get any loans repaid.
The IMF has made the bold statement that Greece needs 50 billion euros over the next few years, there is no alternative just a matter of sorting out in what forms the bailout will happen.
Who is next? Italy is probably in the worst state, Portugal has nearly turned a corner, not forgetting that Ireland isn't out the swamp yet and Cyprus needs to pull its reins in fast before its finances start to run away.
What is very interesting is that within the EU, the Euro countries are doing worse (as a whole) than the non-Euro countries despite counties like Germany being in the Euro - this confirms that the Euro destabilises weaker countries, they were warned about this a long time ago.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
There are as many concerns in other areas. Greece has had a turbulent history and I think many of the 'Yes' voters may have been worried of other repercussions such as the return of similar to the Junta. My opinion is that the majority of 'No' voters will have been from the younger generation and of course, they did not experience those dark days. The Greeks hate the Turks, and as Greece borders Turkey, should Greece leave the EU, that is another issue which could get out of hand, particularly in todays climate.
Therefore, my belief is that all parties to this delicate situation will be very aware of such and will do everything in their power to sort it, not wishing to have a possible repetition which would be totally destabilising for the Greek people and Europe.
Chriskay, there was talk yesterday of Angela Merkel resigning !
Last edited by granny; 6th Jul 201512:49pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
The lenders did exactly the same thing that governments decry about payday lenders and other loan sharks.
They lent money knowing full well that Greece couldn't afford it and would have to borrow more just to make repayments.
It is an intentional sacking of Greece and there will be no winners except JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs - the banks win as usual and it will be at the public's expense.
Any system based around the strong will become stronger and the weak will be come weaker is doomed to failure, never mind how strong the strongest become they become less in number, the weak will become more in number and revolt will be the only option left.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Unfortunately, this is getting more complicated for lil' old me to understand.
Why would the lenders intentionally sack off Greece? I don't see what the benefit to anyone is, should they have had that in mind. It doesn't make sense.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Looking at figures, and knowing figures don't always give a true picture, but it's all we have to go on. Pensions are pretty good in comparison.
Their monthly pensions have gone down since 2009 from £957 to £594......
Restricted withdrawals on a daily basis of 60 euros (£42) = £294 per week.
Cost of living comparison between Greece and UK.
Indices Difference
Info
Consumer Prices in United Kingdom are 45.89% higher than in Greece Consumer Prices Including Rent in United Kingdom are 75.87% higher than in Greece Rent Prices in United Kingdom are 258.48% higher than in Greece Restaurant Prices in United Kingdom are 50.22% higher than in Greece Groceries Prices in United Kingdom are 59.06% higher than in Greece Local Purchasing Power in United Kingdom is 61.34% higher than in Greece
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
The lenders did exactly the same thing that governments decry about payday lenders and other loan sharks.
They lent money knowing full well that Greece couldn't afford it and would have to borrow more just to make repayments.
It is an intentional sacking of Greece and there will be no winners except JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs - the banks win as usual and it will be at the public's expense.
To be fair DD surely the ECB and IMF would have based their assessment as to whether Greece could pay back, on the same sort of figures given by Greece to the Eurozone, to convince them that they had a sufficiently healthy economy? And we all know NOW what deceitful lying figures THEY were.
With that in mind Casper, they only have 11 million population, and half of them don't work. How do they raise enough tax ? Exports are less than imports, so maybe they tried to treat their people a little too well. That is, unless early retirement was a way to have jobs for the unemployed young people . Still mainly a nation of e.g. shop keepers, which gives greater opportunity for those who wish to fiddle the taxman.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
The lenders did exactly the same thing that governments decry about payday lenders and other loan sharks.
They lent money knowing full well that Greece couldn't afford it and would have to borrow more just to make repayments.
It is an intentional sacking of Greece and there will be no winners except JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs - the banks win as usual and it will be at the public's expense.
To be fair DD surely the ECB and IMF would have based their assessment as to whether Greece could pay back, on the same sort of figures given by Greece to the Eurozone, to convince them that they had a sufficiently healthy economy? And we all know NOW what deceitful lying figures THEY were.
The figures were fiddled in the same manner as many other countries, it was a known loophole that JPMorgan Chase and Sachs were "selling" to loads of countries. If the IMF/ECB/EU didn't allow for the fiddle it was through choice not ignorance.
That JPMorgan's and Sachs' loans were later bought out is a huge indication that some sort of pact had gone on a long time before this blew up out of proportions, like you say, why would banks make these very high risk loans unless they knew they had collateral to fall back on. Europe was greedy to get more countries to join, perhaps Greece had some assurances behind the scene which were later reneged.
Its reasonably easy to keep track of another countries economy, relatively small sums can be hidden or disguised but not enough to make huge differences - don't forget, that since 2001, Greece's money isn't even its local currency, its been the Euro - you can bet that every penny of the Government's money and assets was carefully accounted for at the changeover even if the paperwork beforehand was inaccurate. Every loan that Greece had would either be in non-local currency or needed to be transferred away from Drachmas (unlike the Deutsch-mark which has never been deleted - Germany still has some assets in Deutsch-marks which cannot be easily tracked).
Even looking at the official public figures doesn't justify the length of rope given to Greece.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Well one things for sure granny, we have no chance of fiddling the taxman, unless of course you are a poor downtrodden actor or pop singer or minor celebrity, who are made bankrupt two or three times but still manage to have luxurious houses and cars, about a year after I retired I received a bill for £200 from the tax, so I sat myself down and used my new found leisure time to review my tax liabilities, and found that HM tax owed me guess what £200, this then went on over two years more, they took the money off me then sent me a check for the same amount doh, in the meantime back in the UK the ordinary person is being made the scapegoat for government bungling and the greed of the financial institutions, oh well my kids will benefit from the inheritance tax, wont they ?
Hang on to all your gold , we might need it in the not too distant future.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Funny you should say that Casper. Two months ago I helped an elderly gentleman with his tax return as he was really poorly.I went over and over and could not work out why they had sent him this last £480 bill .Queried it by mail and they just wrote back it was correct. Coulndt get through on the phone , and in the end the old man said Oh , just pay the damn thing. Today, I picked up his mail , and lo and behold, a cheque for £480. What an incompetant shower.
The Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis resigning after the no vote,is very odd. The only thing it can mean--- the Greek Government will give more than he was prepared to. a new eight million Euro loan on the drip which will stop if the negotiations fail point to a done deal. Forty eight hours to sort it outI wish them well.
Dusty, I think the creditors said they would not negotiate if he was to be part of the negotiations. What does that tell us ?
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Dusty, I think the creditors said they would not negotiate if he was to be part of the negotiations. What does that tell us ?
He was sacrificed.
No. I believe his interpretation that democracy is not functioning in Europe the way that it should !!! Others may argue that point though.
I also wonder if this case is a major player for when it comes to our referendum, and we will hear more drastic tales to try to convince us to vote a YES.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
I hadn't thought that this fracas could be partly pointing fingers in the Uk's direction but now you mention it I guess they are looking at the bigger picture as well as Greece.
Looks like France is starting to smell the United States of Germany ....
Quote
A poll published on July 3rd showed that 67 per cent of French people believe Dr Merkel has the greatest power over decision-making in Europe, compared to 2 per cent who cited Mr Hollande.
I'm sure this will be smoothed over for the next few months but will rear its head again at some point.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
I don't think Greece will get a much of a deal, the EU cant be seen to be an easy touch, otherwise those countries that are struggling will all expect the same concessions, as to the French they only think about the French, remember they didn't want us in the EU and they imagine themselves as the hub of Europe.
I am really beginning to wonder if the Syriza Party want much of a deal for the Greeks from Europe, or whether they are manipulating a situation in the expectation of Kremlin support.
Although the Syriza party has been 'modified' there has to be concerns by the other EU leaders. The ex finance minister is a Marxist, so there's the answer to that exit.
Having just pivoted like a weathervane , I'm not sure which way I should be pointing at the moment . The wind's blowing in all directions !!
Read the Wikipedia entry on SYRIZA.
extract:
The coalition originally comprised a broad array of groups (thirteen in total) and independent politicians, including social democrats, democratic socialists, left-wing patriots, feminists, anti-capitalists, centrist and environmentalist groups, as well as Marxist–Leninist, Maoist, Trotskyist, Eurocommunist, Luxemburgist and also Eurosceptic components
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
So far as Angela Merkel goes, I think our leaders do realise what's taking shape (we do), but as she has also managed to get rid of a couple of EU leaders in the past, they probably are prepared to put up and shut up . There could be a change on the horizon, but if it wasn't for the Greeks , Europe would blindly be swanning along , with the German Chancellor and Mr. Junker guiding our way in the dark. A can of worms has been given a shake, maybe this whole affair could open the can, which would probably mean disaster for all of us. We'll just take all the refugees from Greece when they flee their own country. Where will we all go to, when we want to flee our own country, any suggestions ? America won't have us. Australia and Canada wouldn't either.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
And even the Americans realise that Germany is running Europe, how come our leaders don't seem to be worried about it? ...
Being a bit of a devils advocat here, but would it be such a bad thing for Germany to be accepted to take the lead in Europe? Out of the EU countries, who would you rather trust a loan to? Who do you trust to efficiently manage motorways and transport ? Which country makes the cars we consider most reliable? Which of those countries would you like to entrust your EU taxes to , to ensure it's used properly ? If you like an orderly lifestyle , who is going to do it better?
Good point granny who will take us? I feel this country is being swallowed up by the dross of other countries, or perhaps it just appears that way, or is it me that interprets it wrongly eg; it appears that the majority of offences of a sexual nature committed in the medical profession are carried out by Pakistani or Indian doctors or dentists, now I am not saying that is the case, but that is the way I perceive it, the illegals at Calais all seem to be young healthy men with a leaning toward violence to get what they want, and I shudder to think what they would be capable of if they are successful in getting here, or the amount of Poles convicted of motoring offences/ drink driving, if I am critical of certain groups because of their behaviour it does not mean I condemn the whole population of those countries, but by raising my concerns I will be accused of categorising people, racism or bigotory, yet others can walk around London wrapped in an Isis flag and nothing happens, no offence has been committed. Anyhow back to Greece, I think the veiled threat about aid from Russia has been made in the hope it will influence the easing of the debt repayment, I don't think Russia is in a position to bail out Greece, although if it were possible Putin would jump at the chance to thumb his nose at Europe, in the unlikely event Russia did offer to bail them out I think Europe would back down and allow concessions.
I thought I heard on one of the channels that Putin was willing to keep Greece going financially for a while, if G undertook to vote against EU sanctions against Russia . Anyone else hear that? Can we presume then that to be of value to Russia, the sanctions must have to be agreed on by all members (as oppose to just a majority) and Greece could therefore kybosh them with a Veto ? That scenario would give Greece quite a powerful hand wouldnt it?
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
And even the Americans realise that Germany is running Europe, how come our leaders don't seem to be worried about it? ...
Being a bit of a devils advocat here, but would it be such a bad thing for Germany to be accepted to take the lead in Europe? Out of the EU countries, who would you rather trust a loan to? Who do you trust to efficiently manage motorways and transport ? Which country makes the cars we consider most reliable? Which of those countries would you like to entrust your EU taxes to , to ensure it's used properly ? If you like an orderly lifestyle , who is going to do it better?
On the surface there is nothing wrong with what you are saying BUT .....
Germany are managing to keep a lid on a lot of things that are going on .....
The media we get would have you believe that the east-west integration is all done and dusted and gone very smoothly, however if you go to East Germany you will find a completely different picture, it is a two class country, the economic integration has barely happened in many places and there is a huge amount of resentment. Did West Germany just take over East Germany to provide a labour force, is that what they would like other countries to be?
The German Nazi/Fascist/neos etc are alive and active but this has been capped over somehow - you look at the German political parties and they have fluffified names (Christian this that or the other), and are centre-right, centre left etc - there are no far-right parties. There are numerous far-right organisations (eg Pegida) with plenty of followers but no far right political parties.
Its just too soon since WW1/WW2 for Germany to be in a position of power. I'm not sure about this next bit but I think Germany is still forbidden to take an active combat military role and are supposed to only be in peace-keeping roles, if so, this has already been broken in Afganistan.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
The Bundeswehr is at the moment underfunded and below strength, apparently defence spending has been cut to allow payments to be made that are owed to NATO for the defence of Germany during the cold war, conscription ended in 2011 and they now have a professional army numbering around 180,000 their professionalism has been heavily criticized along with their reluctance to become involved in the various disputes that are going on, good init seeing as we are being told we must spend more on our defence budget.
It seems that Greece is stalling for time. Is it possible that they are waiting on a reply from Russia, on the new bank called Brics, to give them a lone. OR, Russia will negotiate with China and China will give support.
I believe he's making deals somewhere, but these things take time and really unless there are huge trading agreements or something other with or involving Russia, it would only be a sticking plaster .
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
It probably depends on the amount and the period of time the Russians are willing to commit to, a route through Turkey could also give problems from the alleged Islamic state fanatics, always on the lookout to attack anything that will cause harm to the infidel or his economy, but I think the Greeks have something up their sleeve, maybe a last minute ace will be produced.
There are going to be fewer jobs in Greece and lower paid. The best thing the Greeks can do is play the Germans at their own rules - go to Germany, take German jobs and take German money.
There is a risk of mass exodus from Greece to the UK, after all we are still the handout capital of Europe.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
What the answer is, goodness knows, but it would seem that the only way it's going to work is if Greece privatises it's assets.
How strange, now isn't that similar to every other country in the EU ? Which just goes to show how we are all being manipulated and told what to do in the name of Europe by the powers of Europe, and eventually all countries will be in the same predicament and another continent will be yielding all the profit. 'The Great European Sell Out'. Europe will be the workforce and if it doesn't happen that way, then it will no doubt be because of a massive conflict, eventually. Is it going to be that every time there is financial crisis for any member 'state',(notice the word 'State') more assets have to be sold off ? Member states are supposed to be united, working as a unity, I've never heard so much clap trap. It's only Germany that intend it to be that way, for the benefit of and because they are terrified the Israelis will get too far advanced and steel their promised glory from under their noses. All planned, rigged and just about executed. Then of course there could be an Arab/Israeli war on European territory.
One day, some of you may look back just like those who served in the 2 world wars and ask 'what was it all for' ?? That is when it will be too late, and there won't be any answers .
Probably talking absolute sh1t, but who cares anymore ? Say what you want, there might not be too many more opportunities to do so, the way freedom of speech is being eroded/controlled.
Rant, rant ,rant,.........
Last edited by granny; 13th Jul 201510:50pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Greece had to do the same in 2011 too. They can't have much left really. Poor buggers. Merkel has got what she wanted.... that being 'her very own way' yet again !
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
I've been looking at the Greek finances quite a bit today, there are some very frightening figures that show how Greece are being manipulated.
To pay the interest on its loans, Greece only has to pay 2.6% of its GDP which is hardly enough to bankrupt a state. It is only a small amount more than Germany or France pay, and it is less that Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland. Furthermore, this figure is likely to drop to 2% of GDP this year.
Greece is being forced to run a surplus of 4.5% of GDP which is a joke when countries like France haven't run a surplus for decades (since 1971?). A much more sensible target is between 3% and 3.5% which was the case until the Greek referendum, the extra 1%-1.5% is punishment for the referendum.
Some of Greece's assets have already been taken as surety in the last bailout, these must be massive as the interest alone (which Greece receives in order to make loan repayments) is massive.
While Greece has got itself in a mess, someone else is also twisting the knife.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Apparently, although we the UK are not part of this, we have been told we have to pay £1 billion towards the loan as an interim payment, prior to the CBE getting the bailout sorted. Now that means that although we are not part of the Eurozone, anything can be ripped up and shredded in an instance. So much for official documents and Sovereignty.
Last edited by granny; 14th Jul 201512:12am.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
What is it with politicians these days? Their function in life is to handle the economy and law & order.
Economy is jobs, no jobs creates no economy, no jobs creates civil unrest.
Although Greece obviously has to make savings, it will not get out the mess until there are more jobs - it is up to the politicians to create jobs, Greece has not been given one bit of help towards creating jobs, indeed most of the imposed conditions will do the opposite.
There are hardly any other European countries that could afford to throw some industry in Greece's direction but the obvious industry that could be boosted is ship-making, if contracts get thrown in Greece's direction it would affect the UK shipmakers.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
I think each country should contribute by a percentage of their exposure to the Greek debt. I include Britain and non European countries who speculated on making money before the crisis.They would then be saving themselves to the same degree of their greed. Britain is moaning about making a contribution (contribution now denied) and yet countries who had nothing to do with it, apart from being in the Euro Zone have to pay.The banks again putting World peace at risk to make a cheap buck.
Well, what a turn up for the book , IMF have waited till the 11th hour before sticking their boot into the mix . Everybody and his dog knew that Greece had no way of ever repaying , yet only now the day of the Greek parliaments decision do the IMF speak out . Why?
IMF want a Greece that can recover, they got pee'd off with the ECB/EU proposals a few weeks ago as it was an extremely short term survival package that was doomed to failure in the long term..
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
I get that bit , I just dont understand why they have left it till the final day - there has to be a particular reason for the timing surely, what extra advantage/pressure/benefit/ has it given them I wonder. Some brinkmanship perhaps to see who can be drawn outlast minute to show their hand ?
Testing the water, maybe. See how the proposals are accepted/not accepted, and then at the last minute, come up with something slightly different that reduces the impact and makes things a little more palatable for everyone.
None of these institutions are led by fools. They confer constantly and have a bag of tricks up their sleeve. Greece has been pushed to the brink, so in an attempt for them not to leave the EU or Eurozone, a sweetener is to be dished up, to bring them back again, in line with the original expectations that were pre-arranged, but that most didn't know about until now, maybe.
Psychology plays a major part on such things.
Only my view.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
They haven't changed their story, just restating the blatantly obvious yet again. Germany is forcing an agreement that is completely pie-in-the-sky.
For Greece to achieve a surplus for decades is impossible. Its a credit to Greece that it got into surplus in 2014, most other European countries didn't and they are in far healthier economies than Greece.
Germany needs to accept that money was lent unwisely and have to share the blame and the loss, of course they don't want to but if they don't then the same process is going to repeat and yet more money will be at risk and Greece will be in a deeper mess - how long could a country survive with zero international trade and zero money - probably about a week before people start dying?
Cameron is spot on when he is now starting to talk about humanitarian aid for Greece, it could well end up as the most poverty stricken country in the world unless a proper rescue package is orchestrated. A brilliant credit to the EEC's ideals.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
With all the other countries queuing up to become part of EU , Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, Serbia ,Turkey, I can't imagine that Greece will be the last. There could be a constant bail out for decades and I doubt that there will be enough industry to make each country flourish in whatever they are able to scoop and build on from other countries. Of course, we will not be countries eventually, simply States who adhere to the command from central European Government or Presidency.
I love the way politicians from other countries have been referring to the 'European project'. Being sarcastic ! A project with peoples lives should no be what it is about.
We don't hear much about what Romania is up to. If they were doing any good, why are they all coming over here ?
Germany are really blotting their copy book.
Last edited by granny; 15th Jul 20159:00pm.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Sorry, grammar went completely out of the window .
Germany is really blotting it's copy book, and other errors.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Romania isn't doing too badly compared to other countries, much better than us, but as with many countries its been many years since they have been in surplus.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Anyone else see this on Sky News yesterday? Reporters were interviewing the Greek public on the street about the latest bail-out deal/austerity measures, etc. and spoke to this guy standing in front of a graffitied wall.
I noticed the € = Swastika and the WW2 years, and being curious, I snapped a pic, (and after coming up empty with Google Translate,) slapped it on Facebook asking if anyone could translate it. Turned out someone could...
A Greek guy called Yannis gave me the following answer;
Perhaps the figure should be 500,000 which is the approximate number of Greek civilians that died of famine or hunger due to the occupation of Greece by Germany, Italy and Bulgaria.
5 million is normally the quoted figure of Jewish holocaust deaths of which around 60,000 were Greek.
Whatever, I can understand their resentment.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Well despite it being quiet, Greece is in a bigger mess than ever. They have a €7.4bn repayment due in July and there is not any chance they can raise that money.
Both the EU(implicitly Germany) and IMF can't see a way that they can provide any more assistance. No EU leaders dare say they have money to give away at the moment.
Life in Greece is bad for the majority, cuts and austerity measures are far greater than anything w have seen in this country.
I feel really really sorry for the Greeks, they can't afford to stay in the EU and they can't afford to leave, basically they have become beggars with no future prospects for at least the next three generations.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
So true, this year is probably the turning point for Greece and for Europe. Marine Le pen is vowing to get rid of the euro, should she be elected, Italy is almost bankrupt as is Spain, and I think Portugal is not far off. One thing for sure, those who wish to lead other countries by the nose are usually in it for their own benefit. EU now threatens us with £billions to get out of the EU and we probably know why.....to help bail all the other countries out, that Germany and Brussels have driven into a hole. Not only that but ( I may have it wrong but I think someone will correct me) the European Central Bank or the MFI uses the money repaid by Greece for example just to pay the interest on the loans and the rest of us are doing so too. So the debts will never be paid. Things are not looking good for any of the southern medi. countries.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
Interesting that in the Old Testament when the united peoples decided to build a huge tower to try and reach into the heavens (tower of Babel) that God caused it to fail and scattered the peoples giving them different languages. The story has parallels in Surmerian history as well. The EU Parliament building in Strasbourg was modelled on the unfinished Tower of Babel....never learn from history!
Should have modelled it on the Leaning Tower of Pisa.
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. ~Chief Seattle
