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#884233 - 29th Jun 2014 2:57pm Electrical Advice
Willo_ Offline
Forum Master

Registered: 5th Jul 2012
Posts: 2518
Loc: Merseyside
Am in the middle of decorating bedroom, now for the past few years there has only ever been one socket in bedroom, which just is no good now, I have pulled wires out of the wall, and i now have what you see in the picture.

I want to add 3 more double sockets to this, so am i right in thinking, that i cut in to one of these wires, connect up first socket then loop to next socket and then the next, and the other wire goes to the last socket to complete the circuit.


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Edited by Willo_ (29th Jun 2014 2:58pm)
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#884240 - 29th Jun 2014 3:40pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Willo_]
fish5133 Online   content
Forum Master

Registered: 22nd Mar 2010
Posts: 2824
Loc: Heswallish
Hi Willo. Turn off the power first , or isolate the relevant ring main and check sockets are not live. Firstly i am not a qualified electrician so any comments are at your risk. With 2 cables going into the socket would suggest it is on the ring circuit ( just from your photo though it could be , but shouldnt be and unlikely to be, that you have a socket spurred of the ring main circuit and another spurred off that) Once youve determined that the socket is on the main ring circuit you can put a new socket onto either of the grey cables. Where you want the sockets going may determine which cable you use but you could have one on one cable and the other 2 on the other cable. The other option you have is a combination--- with a socket or 2 just spured off the cable and say 1 on the ring. The old rule of thumb was that if you had say 5 sockets on your upstairs ring main circuit then you were allowed to add up to 5 spurred sockets. For adding sockets looped on the ring main 3 more shouldnt be a problem for a domestic loading (power use) situation.If you spur off you will need junction boxes where you break into the main cable. You may also find the wiring colours have changed so will have to do your homework

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#884241 - 29th Jun 2014 3:41pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Willo_]
j_demo Online   Know_it_all
Forum Addict

Registered: 4th Nov 2011
Posts: 1858
Loc: Wallasey/New Brighton
yeh go for it, after all, what's the worst that could happen?*


*DISCLAIMER: i do NOT have any sort of qualification in this area, the above advice is for satirical purposes only... sorry!

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#884280 - 29th Jun 2014 6:25pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Willo_]
Blueskier Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 22nd Mar 2013
Posts: 194
Loc: Wallasey
Please dont read this as a criticism or like i am preaching but as i am sure you understand electricity can be your best friend or your worst enemy.

First, if you do this you will be breaching Part P of the building regulations. Unless of course you are a part P registered electrician or you contact planning, tell them your plans, have a spark inspect your first fix then your second fix and do all the necessary measurements and certification.

Second, you can assume this is on the ring main but that is possibly wrong and potentially dangerous if not the case. It might be a spur. There are ways of verifying if it is the ring main but in all honesty if you are asking on here i would not be confident that you could do it correctly.

If you google it there are plenty of websites that describe how to do this with pics and description.

However IF it is verified that this is your ring main you would take one of the cables to your first socket then twin and earth to the next and the next until you complete the ring by continuing with the second of the cables from the original socket.

Also any new wiring, even on an existing circuit, that is buried in a wall less than 50mm deep and that circuit needs to be RCD protected.

Fish, sorry but however well intentioned bad advice is bad advice. No rule of thumb for spurs. The rule was 1 spur from 1 point on the ring main. You can not double up on spurs from one point on the mains. And using junction boxes (which will most likely be hidden) to tap off a ring main is a huge no no. Also the loading is nothing to do with how many sockets there are it is down to floor area that it covers.

JIB Approved Electrician of 28 years.

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#884285 - 29th Jun 2014 7:02pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Blueskier]
Thetruth Offline
Newbeee

Registered: 26th Apr 2012
Posts: 19
Loc: Wallasey
No you have it all wrong, You pick up the yellow pages or Google and employ a local electrician, Life is not a rehearsal, you obviously do not know what you are doing if you have to ask.

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#884289 - 29th Jun 2014 7:19pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Blueskier]
ZipperClub Offline
Wiki Addict

Registered: 2nd Dec 2012
Posts: 7253
Loc: Our House In Our Road
Originally Posted By: Blueskier
Also the loading is nothing to do with how many sockets there are it is down to floor area that it covers.

JIB Approved Electrician of 28 years.

We are talking 13amp wiring here, so if he has 50 sockets all together its ok if they are all next to each other?. Me thinks the wiring would soon warm up and no need for central heating.
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#884292 - 29th Jun 2014 7:22pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Willo_]
Willo_ Offline
Forum Master

Registered: 5th Jul 2012
Posts: 2518
Loc: Merseyside
I have never said at any point I know what am doing.
I asked for advice, and I got advice.
thank you.

is there any qualified sparkies on here that want the job when am ready for them to be done
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#884318 - 29th Jun 2014 8:37pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Willo_]
Blueskier Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 22nd Mar 2013
Posts: 194
Loc: Wallasey
I honestly was not being condescending just giving you the facts.

I am afraid I can not do it as I am maintenance based now so not Part P registered (this is only for domestic installations.

Would you believe, time served JIB Approved Electrician with all my city and guilds and NVQ level 3, I am not allowed to carry out electrical work in my own home.

There is a spark on here who comes highly recommended but i cant for the life of me remember his name. I am sure he will be along or someone will hook you up with him.

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#884320 - 29th Jun 2014 8:37pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Willo_]
j_demo Online   Know_it_all
Forum Addict

Registered: 4th Nov 2011
Posts: 1858
Loc: Wallasey/New Brighton
Originally Posted By: Willo_
I have never said at any point I know what am doing.
I asked for advice, and I got advice.
thank you.

is there any qualified sparkies on here that want the job when am ready for them to be done


Blueskier seems to know what he's doing, i'm sure if you ask him nicely enough they might pencil you in xD

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#884327 - 29th Jun 2014 8:46pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Willo_]
Blueskier Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 22nd Mar 2013
Posts: 194
Loc: Wallasey
Zipper, its 30 amp for a ring main, 13 amp per plug top.
Believe it or not its not the number of sockets it is the load on each socket, you could have 50 sockets but your loading would not change. It is what is plugged in. So design says 100m2 of floor space for one ring main. Your limiting factor is your fuse/breaker which would blow/trip at 30/32amp well below the current carrying capacity of the cable and well within the thermal limits.
In practice you could plug just three items of 13 amp each into a couple of double sockets. Load 39 amp. Circuit trips.
Theoretical design and practical loading, you have something called diversity factor which has fully prescribed calculations.

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#884328 - 29th Jun 2014 8:49pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Blueskier]
little_pob Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 30th May 2008
Posts: 442
Loc: Upton
Originally Posted By: Blueskier
...First, if you do this you will be breaching Part P of the building regulations. Unless of course you are a part P registered electrician or you contact planning, tell them your plans, have a spark inspect your first fix then your second fix and do all the necessary measurements and certification...
Ignoring BS 7671, "competency" and the other sound advice given. Extra sockets on an existing ring are classed as "minor work" (unless in special locations), so don't actually need notification to Building Control under Part P. Source: http://www.niceic.com/Uploads/File1247.pdf

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#884329 - 29th Jun 2014 8:50pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Blueskier]
Blueskier Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 22nd Mar 2013
Posts: 194
Loc: Wallasey
J demo, would love to but Part P has heavily curtailed my supplementary income frown

Willo, i have a contact who is reliable and Part P registered, PM me if you want his details and the guy on spark on here doesnt surface.

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#884345 - 29th Jun 2014 9:09pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Blueskier]
Blueskier Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 22nd Mar 2013
Posts: 194
Loc: Wallasey
little pob, good find on the link.
Just shows know alls dont necessarily know all.
Certainly never had this explained as non notifiable to me. I suppose the caveat is to follow the regs BS7671. Possibly one socket is permitted but no more.
There are strange conditions, you can replace one damaged cable on one circuit yourself but not two cables. Damage a single cable on each of two circuits and you cant replace yourself.

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#884348 - 29th Jun 2014 9:10pm Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Willo_]
Reno37 Offline
Member

Registered: 2nd Nov 2012
Posts: 82
Loc: Wallasey
Best advice I would offer is 'Get a professional Electrician ' and don't take chances. Always remember Electricity is a great slave but a deadly master.

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#884452 - 30th Jun 2014 9:28am Re: Electrical Advice [Re: Blueskier]
Willo_ Offline
Forum Master

Registered: 5th Jul 2012
Posts: 2518
Loc: Merseyside
Originally Posted By: Blueskier
J demo, would love to but Part P has heavily curtailed my supplementary income frown

Willo, i have a contact who is reliable and Part P registered, PM me if you want his details and the guy on spark on here doesnt surface.
I have sent you a pm.
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