Forums Forums Wirral Information Law And Your Rights Parking Charge Liscard

Hi all

Received a parking charge notice this afternoon in Liscard Cherry Tree carpark. Reason they gave was parking in parent and child only space. Ticket was issued around 10 mins after I arrived. While I fully admit I did not have a child with me, I was collecting one from liscard.

Do I have a chance of an appeal?

Is this one of the carparks that have uninforcable tickets?

Many Thanks

TheMrs

It's not a council car park, so wouldn't be enforced by them. I'm no expert, but it's my understanding that only statutory bodies can issues fines that are enforceable - a private company like the cherry tree or their agents wouldn't fall into that bracket. I'm sure there're people on here that know far more on the subject and can advise you accordingly. Good luck with it

Seems to me that you were watched, a bit underhand to say the least. Good look with appeal .

as far as i know it's not a council one, ignore it. i know a few people who have and nothing ever came of it.

Couple of things.
1) did you actually return to the car with said child? If the "watcher" was still there he might have filmed you.If you did i would make that point in a letter.(dont pay the fine though)

2) was the parking bay clearly identified as a parent and child one. I managed to get off a council ticket because all the temporary signs stating sundays were no longer free were not visible from the bay i parked in.

3) A local solicitor here in Heswall wrote an article in Heswall magazine october 2012 page 32 explaining you dont have to pay the fine if it is as Adams said not council and run by a private company. Its all to do with contract law and the fact that you have not entered (signed) in to a contract with the parking agents.

good luck
http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1z131/HeswallMagazineOctob/resources/index.htm?referrerUrl=http%3A%2F%2Ffree.yudu.com%2Fitem%2Fdetails%2F610855%2FHeswall-Magazine-October-2012

whatever you do,dont pay it!

I'd be a bit careful about not paying it. They will probably refer it to a credit reference agency as an unpaid bill and damage your credit record.

My advise is ' don't pay' more importantly don't admit that you where driving the car. If you pay you will never win an appeal as it is them that consider any appeals. This is also an admission of guilt. I assume you are the registered keeper of the vehicle !

They will write to the registered keeper and ask that person to pay the PCN. They can get the registered keeper information from the DVLA as they are members of the BPA) The registered keeper is under no legal obligation to give any details of who was driving the car at the time of the trespass. Only a local authority or police can demand this information.

Write back to them staying that although you are the registered keeper you where not driving the car on that occassion and they should write to the person who was. They will then ask for the drivers details and you reply with ' I am under no obligation to give this information.

They will write to you again making threats of court action but they can only issue a civil action against the person who did the trespass and not the registered keeper.

On the 3rd letter you send to them issue a stern warning. Say that you will charge them £50 for each letter you send to them but the first 3 letters are free but a fourth letter from them will trigger a charge of £50 for each letter and will signal their acceptance of your terms and conditions. State that this is fair under the unfair terms act and that you will Persue them for harassment should more letters arrive from them on this matter.

If you are caught on camera or have admitted the trespass then they have you bang to rights so pay up and get the discount.

I have used this method a few times and its worked every time. I have sample letters for you which I can send privately.

Don't worry about credit reference agencies getting involved. They can't. Do your research on the Internet to clarify what i have said on here.

Wow many thanks for all the reply's !

I have not paid anything and have not been in touch with them.
I am not actually the registered keeper my partner is but I presume the advice still stands?

TheMrs

do not enter into any correspondence, just ignore anything you receive about the matter.

they will threaten you that the bill will go up and if you don't pay they will sell it on to a third party and ruin your credit credibility thats what happend to me and i got a letter of anpr say in g that they had sold the dept on then i got another letter of the supposed companythat bought the dept to me that it had gone up by another £70 pounds i told them to fu-- o-- and i have not heard any think for three months

Yeah the advice still stands and as your partner is the registered keeper he will get any letters.

If you do not enter into any correspondence then that is up to you and the outcome will be the same but will take longer to stop the letters and court threats.

Essentially the issue is that they can only take a civil action against the person who trespassed!! As long as they can not find out who it was then no civil action can be taken. If you think about it logically!! How can they summonds a person for a trespass just because they own the car, they have to identify the person who trespassed to do this. What ever you do! Don't tell them who was driving the car.

Ignore their threats no matter how much they try it on. If you do write to them like I said then it will all stop after 3 letters as they will be agreeing to your terms and conditions with a fourth letter, which incidentally will never arrive because it will cost them the £50 haha. after all that will them agreeing to your terms

Good luck with it and please keep us posted.

All the info I got from my first PCN was off forums like these.

To any other readers of this :- remember if you get a ticket (fine) from a council or police you have to provide driver details as that's the law. They also have a robust and fair appeals process. These others are rogues without fair or transparent processes and appeals.

I always thought that the parent and child parking spaces were more a case of a courtesy not to park there, rather than actually being against the law?

I assumed you could only get a ticket if you parked in a disabled spot without the necessary blue badge.

Correct me if I'm wrong

A little link about disabled parking

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/misuse-of-parking-spaces-for-disabled-people

Great advice here....Hold fast mrs h

Here is a another link, makes wonderful bedtime reading.
http://www.wirral.gov.uk/my-services/transport-and-streets/parking/car-parks-council-operated

Thank you ZipperClub for the links. great information.

This might be a contentious subject and we all know the motorist is always an easy way to raise revenue.

Parking charges are here to stay! so lets get it right and if you have to pay for parking 'use council car parks' and let he money come back to the residents of Wirral through services and jobs.

By using private car parks the revenue goes to share holders or landlords and is not ploughed back into our local economy.
So!! they might pay taxes to central government but what do we see of that in the north west of England ......

I understand that it is an offence to park in a disabled spot, but again I don't believe it's an offence to park in a parent/child space regardless of whether or not you have a child in the car. Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually I just found this,

When it comes to parent and child parking, there are no legal requirements whatsoever.
Supermarkets and other private operators offer it to provide greater convenience for families who shop there.
This means that although some supermarkets threaten penalty fares for inappropriate use of parent and child spaces, it would be difficult to enforce without taking the issue to court.
Another factor is that it's often not made clear when child status ceases, with some supermarkets setting them aside for under-fives and others for under-12s.

It doesn't matter what the supermarkets say, it has to be in legislation for it to be legally enforceable.

If the supermarket want to "hire" the space to you for a set period of time, then the rules for that hire must be clearly set out before you park/enter into a contract with them.

They can't add conditions later, and the conditions they make must be clear, lawful and fair.

What is a "disabled" bay ? Fairly obvious, for Blue Badge holders who must clearly display their badge whilst parked there.

What is a "parent & child" bay ? I have no idea, does this mean I can use it when I'm out with my child, who is in her 20's, and strongly objects to being called a child. Does it mean I can't use it if I take my granddaughter out, as I'm not her parent ?

We can all use common sense, but common sense isn't legally enforceable.

Just as an aside, the ticket can ONLY be for lost revenue, ie if you park for two hours but only pay for one then all they have potentially lost is a payment for one extra hour, anything more is a fine, and they can't fine you, only a court can.

I'm not agreeing that taking up a parent/child bay is right, but neither do I agree that the tickets are either, and two wrongs definitely don't make a right, so just ignore it.

I can see where your coming from on this and you are absolutely correct. however, should the person contest the PCN they are destined to loose as they would need to either pay the PCN and appeal or not pay and risk a civil action, they will have admitted the trespass.
Its their [company] private land and they can set the rules as they see fit, furthermore, it is clearly sign posted including the conditions of the contract that is being entered into when you use the car park. All this will conform to the BPA requirements.

these are not rational people and are solely out to make money. they will seek court action as it will succeed if they can identify the person who did the deed.

best way is not to admit anything, don't pay and therefore no appeal.

If they pay and the appeal or just appeal then it is almost guaranteed to fail as the company administer there own closed door appeals process. By appealing they will also give the company details that could lead to a civil action. I would say " don't pay" and either ignore the letters or follow the process I outlined earlier. Its worked for me a few times

I have experience of these operators at the Cherry Tree Centre and personally had my pcn "parking charge notice" appeal accepted at the independant appeal process (POPLA) only last week. Do not ignore it you can and will successfully beat them if you strictly follow advice. They, ANPR Ltd have never done court but have recently issued a few court summons so beware. I will happily help out personally as the way these operate is so far removed from the legislation it is untrue.I have a grudge against them now so will happily help out. That goes for any others who have been done. PM me and i will get back to you. Also make sure you dont put any details of the ticket on a public forum, they carefully follow them to catch people out.

Just to clear a few points up.
Quid Nunc,Since Oct 2012 new legislation (the protection of freedoms act) allows these operators to pursue the registered keepers under strict conditions.
It is their land however they can not do as they please, i can not put a sign on my property saying anyone who steps on it can be punched really hard in the face or charged for stepping on my land, there are laws and contract terms that must be adhered to regardless of it being private land.
Also the blue badge system does not have any legal basis on private land. It is a way they try and police the parking but if you are disabled you can park in a private car park without displaying.
These people have little regard for law, fairness or justice. They are there to make a shed load of cash. The way they operated on the ticket i was issued was laughable but i can see why so many peoplefold and pay. Please dont.

Headcoat, i have tried to PM you but your inbox is full.

I wasn't in a disabled bay tho?

Messages emptied

TheMrs

I know, the reference to disabled bay was to clarify some of the comments made in earlier responses. Regardless of the "offence" it is near unenforceable.

There are so many lies, misconceptions and bad advice given regarding PCN's.

I will PM you.

Ignore them they are not council......

You all might want to look at how the law changed October 2012 and act accordingly.

Go on this site. They know everything there is to know about it. Suggest you read things before asking questions of them.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/

That puts a completely new complexion on the case.

Hi Quid_nunc,

You say that if they have photo evidence of the driver then we are banged to rights? This happened to us last week as we came back 15 minutes late to the car.
The APNR guy was already taking photos of the car and when we got in the car (should have driven off maybe) he put the ticket on the windscreen and then photo'd us sitting in the car. So should we pay?

Isn't the key issue here whether or not the landowner has given express permission to APNR in their mutual agreement (contract) to allow APNR to seek damages for specified purposes which has to include "trespassed in an area known to us..... Cherry Tree Wallasey" and or the other listed breaches on the ticket.
APNR state that they have breached the contract with the landowner because we passed our paid for time. Do we automatically enter into a contract with APNR when we park there? I haven't checked the signage yet. I guess we do?

Anyway I'm not planning to pay but we are away on holiday for 2 weeks from Friday...... so I'll miss the discount period...

they might have a picture of the driver but if they are not the registered keeper they are none the wiser who that person is. dont lie as it may end in court but dont tell them who was driving.
ultimately you appeal to POPLA and using very exact terms the pcn will be almost certainly thrown out.

The new Govt act still revolves around Contract Law. By parking and paying you are entering into an Implied Contract. Questionable that if you dont pay at all you may not be agreeing to contract as "consideration" has to be made. i.e i will let you park if you pay (consideration on both sides). If you dont pay at all you are not entering contract. You could also put a sign on your windscreen saying you will promise to pay next week.

Also certain people cannot legally enter into contract under 18, mentally incapable, if intoxicated. Intoxication one could be a good bet but i dont know if the police could retrospectfully do you on the basis of your own admission (i doubt they could).

I would of thought that by parking on the land, you are agreeing to the "contract", that you will pay to park there. If you dont pay you are breaking the contract.

Ive moved this topic from ask wikiwirral to Law n Order.

There are two similar topics one of which is sticky.

Have a look at this link, its a template a member has used click me

ANPR who operate the Cherry Tree parking control have this week been ejected from the British Parking Association membership due to failing to comply with the code of practice.
This means that they can no longer get keeper details of a vehicle from the DVLA.
In other words they can put a ticket on a car but that is as far as they can go. Just like a begging letter.

My interpretation is free parking in the Cherry Tree Centre.

http://britishparking.co.uk/News/bpa-terminates-membership-of-anpr-limited

Thank you Blueskier for all that you`ve done and all those that you`ve helped and for keeping us all updated.

Hi All

My father in law got a parking ticket the other day, he did pay and display put the ticket fell off his window, he has the tickets and sent off copies but they still want him to pay the £50 fine, he has spoken to the C.A.B and they have said pay the bill in case it goes to court he is an OAP and struggles as it is, it makes me mad, should he pay

Write to them and include a photocopy of the ticket. Say the ticket was displayed correctly at the time of parking but that because the adhesive on their ticket was substandard the ticket fell off. It's not your fault if their adhesive isn't fit for purpose. My wife did this and they waived the fine.

hi I have had three parking tickets of them over the past three years due to my daughter forgetting to display the tickets properly and despite there threats to increase the fine if not paid in time or send it to a collection agency I have not paid them a penny as they are not authorised to collect money from you fob them off

ps they wave a big stick to frighten you but they have no bite they are useless they will tell you that they will sell it on to a dept collection agency and have a guess what the dept collection agency is the same company ANPR they just disguise it with a different name

Someone had a total parking charge of £24.5k upheld by a court - never say never.

SOURCE

I've also noticed the tickets are no longer adhesive in Wallasey. The glue can't be substandard because there is none!

Got my first Parking Charge Notice courtesy of Parking Eye. Morrisons in Brecon. Pay £2 for maximum 2hr stay. The pay machines were not working (tried 3) and everyone else found the same so no one could get a ticket. Thinking it was therefore free parking ended up overstaying the 2 hrs. Got a PCN for exceeding the 2 hour stay (2 hours 45 mins). Interesting to see what they say about it. Hinges around if they are in breach of contract in not being able to accept my money and also provide me with a time to return.
They got me by ANPR timed in and out (not from when you buy ticket). There will be a lot of other people getting PCN

Maybe the machines have not changed over to the new coins ?

Nice phone call from Morrisons saying don't appeal they will sort it out...If they do I will do the next couple of weeks shopping at Morrisons as a thank you gesture !!