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#793212 - 11th May 2013 12:01pm The Reformation in Wirral
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 13644
Loc: Wirral
Can anyone tell if there is any particular information regarding St. Hilary's Church during the period of the Reformation and where it may be found? Any simple things as to whether there was an organ or choir or if it was ransacked during the 1500's.

Bishop John Bird of Chester, was also recorded as Curate there, which I don't fully uderstand why, unless there was a slighty different meaning then. It was the smallest church in the diocese and as I have been doing some research on Bishop Bird and friends, I wonder if it could possibly have been a hideout in a little backwater during such an unsure and unsettled period.

I am still not sure whether it was Roman Catholic or Protestant at that time. Bishop Bird seemed to favour both, depending on the situation of the moment. He married a young(very much younger than himself) protestant girl in Edward V1's reign, when marriage laws for clergy were relaxed and then got rid of her when Queen Mary came to the throne. Was stripped of his Bishopric and sent to Gt. Dunmow as vicar and suffragen to Edmund Bonner, the Bishop of London. (nasty man)
.
Bishop Bird had been given his Bishopric and made the first Bishop of Chester by Royal Grant of Henry VIII and went on the Kings behalf to try to persuade Catherine of Aaragon to give Henry his divorce. Bird had strong connections to Henry, it would appear.

Any information to throw further light on the period would be very interesting. Thanks


Edited by granny (11th May 2013 12:03pm)
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...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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#793360 - 12th May 2013 8:20am Re: The Reformation in Wirral [Re: granny]
Tatey Offline
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Registered: 14th Apr 2009
Posts: 1412
Loc: New Brighton
granny,

I believe the church has an archivist, have you tried there or their web-site?

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#793388 - 12th May 2013 10:31am Re: The Reformation in Wirral [Re: granny]
chriskay Offline
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Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
Originally Posted By: granny

Bishop John Bird of Chester, was also recorded as Curate there, which I don't fully understand why, unless there was a slightly different meaning then.


I think the meaning may have changed. Although it now is used for one who assists a priest or vicar, the original meaning was simply "caretaker" from the Latin "curatus"; the same root gives "curator". Maybe it simply meant that the bishop was temporarily responsible for the souls in the absence of a parish priest.
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#793407 - 12th May 2013 12:16pm Re: The Reformation in Wirral [Re: Tatey]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 13644
Loc: Wirral
Originally Posted By: Tatey
granny,

I believe the church has an archivist, have you tried there or their web-site?


Didn't even think they may have an archivist. Fingers crossed. Thanks Tatey.

In my original post I wrote that St.Hilary's was the smallest church in the diocese at that time. In fact it should have read, the smallest Parish. Sorry.

Chriskay, you could well be correct as it is recorded on two occassions.

http://www.theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/locations/index.jsp?locKey=5161
Two others interst me also. a)Thomas Mollenex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mulliner_Book

and b)Thomas Tassie/Tassye/Taffy/Taffee. See the S's crossed as in treble clef, could have been mistaken for F's. There is only one example of his signature.His name was mostly spelt without a Y,he signed it with a Y . His life dates unaccounted,could have coincided with dates at St.Hilary's and I am more than convinced that Bishop Bird/Byrde, knew him. He was also teacher to Wm.Byrde(composer b 1540's)




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113491792.jpg




Edited by granny (12th May 2013 12:22pm)
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...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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#793482 - 12th May 2013 4:30pm Re: The Reformation in Wirral [Re: granny]
davidj47 Offline
Beginner

Registered: 1st May 2010
Posts: 6
Loc: noctorum
For Thomas Tallys try. he is rather famous

http://www.nndb.com/people/357/000093078/

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#793483 - 12th May 2013 4:32pm Re: The Reformation in Wirral [Re: granny]
davidj47 Offline
Beginner

Registered: 1st May 2010
Posts: 6
Loc: noctorum

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#793489 - 12th May 2013 4:58pm Re: The Reformation in Wirral [Re: davidj47]
chriskay Offline
Forum Veteran

Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
Originally Posted By: davidj47


Thanks for the link to the magnificent motet "Spem in Alium".
I hadn't realised until I read your link that there were two Thomas Tallis's
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#793492 - 12th May 2013 5:14pm Re: The Reformation in Wirral [Re: granny]
chriskay Offline
Forum Veteran

Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
Originally Posted By: granny


See the S's crossed as in treble clef, could have been mistaken for F's.


Interesting; I've not seen that before. It's almost the opposite of the confusion sometimes caused by the use of the "long s"
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#793546 - 12th May 2013 8:06pm Re: The Reformation in Wirral [Re: davidj47]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 13644
Loc: Wirral
Originally Posted By: davidj47


Dave, thanks for that.Beautiful!

This is my interet. As you say Chris the long 's' is similar to the capital 'L' in latin script. Tallis wrote his name in capital letters but somewhere along the line, those letters could have been mis-understood. Tallis was a Dover Priory a Banedicitine Abbey before the Dissolution. After that he seemed to be in various places but according to one..

" Even if he had desired to make another career move, the opportunities for doing so were shortly to become extremely limited because of the wholesale disbanding of church choirs that occurred during the reign of Edward VI (1547-53). Tallis may well have served as organist of the chapel throughout his membership of it, although he was not given this title until the 1570s"

So there are blanks in his career which are so far not known.

Bishop Bird.. originally a Carmelite had much to do with the Royal household as stated in my previous post. He had been instructed to bring a photo from Ann of Cleves, as the King had not set eyes on her. He had been Bishop of Bangor and Penrith. He had been married and surely must have had children.
Thomas Mulliner also may have had children who held his MS. It was supposedly written during the reign of Henry VIII but Mulliner died before the MS came to light ,so he may have had a son by the same name.
I just think it's all a bit coincidental that three people of connecting important names, turned up in one Church during the same period in History. Followed by Wm. Byrde who supposedly came from a father named Thomas of no importance. He could have been taken there as one of John Bird's children,as John went to Essex when he got rid of his wife but Wm. obviously had a great knowledge of church music and must have had connections to have been in Chapel Royal. His two brothers were choristers at St. Paul's Cathedral, and Wm. Byrd may have been a chorister there as well under Simon Westcote, although it is possible that he was a chorister with the Chapel Royal.
Much information is unknown about these two characters and I wonder if!!
What do you or anyone else think.....could it be that Bishop Bird took pity on Thomas Tallis and brought him here to escape something, he in turn looked after Bishop John Bird's son whom as a child could have been brought up by a relative of Bishop John Bird? I was prepared to drop it but then Thomas Mulliner (of Mullineux) appeared which sent me off on another mission.
Note the pictures of two different people, one Byrd and one Tallis??

I could go on for hours.Sorry if I'm boring you.


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220px-William_Byrd.jpg

tallis and byrd.jpg




Edited by granny (12th May 2013 8:08pm)
_________________________
...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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#793859 - 14th May 2013 11:13am Re: The Reformation in Wirral [Re: granny]
granny Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Jun 2011
Posts: 13644
Loc: Wirral
Too many Tassie's in Bidston and Wallasey for the name to have been a misprint. So I concede on that one.
Nevertheless, John Bird is still somewhat of a mystery, with a pearl eye! Would like to find out who his wife was and where she ended up. Records show that the Bishops all over the country went mad when Edward VI came to the thrown. They were finding themselves young wives, and many of them ended up paying the price. e.g Tower, or excecution but our Mr Bird was cunning and just got deposed.Then played his part in sending a young man to be burned.Although with Bonner behind him it was probably a motive of self preservation . What terrible times they lived through.
_________________________
...and those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.FN

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