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#441204 - 4th Nov 2010 9:45pm Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions
PaulTaters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 3rd Nov 2010
Posts: 177
Loc: Birkenhead
Thanks again for any possible thoughts on these random points!

Welsh stuff:

1. One of the broader definitions of the geographical Wirral Peninsula (e.g. mentioned on Wikipedia) is that it's technically an island partly bounded by the River Dee and the Shropshire Union Canal. If this is the case, then is part of the peninsula Welsh?
For example, Shotwick Lake, Garden City, Deeside industrial estate, Hawarden Bridge station, RAF Sealand etc.. would all count as part of the geographical Wirral Peninsula under this definition (they are all north of the Dee), but all are in Flintshire. I think this anomaly may exist because the River Dee was rerouted via the 18th century canal, yet the English-Welsh border was never changed.

2. Does anyone know why Birkenhead was chosen for the 1917 Eisteddfodd? This seems an unlikely thing to happen nowadays. Despite the fact that Wirral has a large proportion of Welsh descent, it seems from a modern perspective unusual that a place in England was chosen.
It's certainly an interesting part of Birkenhead History, but I've just always wondered how it came about. (I also noticed the CROESO sign on Birkenhead market in recent times, as it apparently attracts quite a few Welsh speakers)

3. We know that Birkenhead in Welsh is called "Penbedw" which means essentially the same thing in both languages. Do other towns/villages on the Wirral also have Welsh names?

More M53 stuff:

4. The M531 became part of the main M53 because the original M53 route into Wales, south of J5 was scrapped. Does anyone know why it was scrapped as it seems like it would have been very useful. I'm guessing it was cost, but it seems to me that linking Merseyside with North Wales directly with a motorway would've been economically beneficial. Also, in lieu of the above, the M53 now eventually becomes the A55, south Chester bypass. I do wonder why this motorway-like road remains the A55 and does not become a motorway standard extension of the M53, simply renamed to the M53?
By the way I haven't driven a car for ten years (which is probably why I don't know the answer), but I'm just interested in transport.

5. The "stub bridge" that existed near J5 of the M53 (due to the above cancelled extension) extended onto a field near Hooton.
I think there is just a field there now with no stub as it was demolised a few years back. According to maps like Google Earth, that part of the field where the stub used to be is in Merseyside, but the rest of the same field is in Cheshire. Is there any logical reason why a farmer's field in Cheshire would have a rectangular section of Merseyside encroaching into it? Obviously caused by the mortoway construction project, but I don't know why the border has to trace around the edge of the structure. (This is a silly one I know, but I find it interesting in a bizarre way!)

6. Was it true that a barrage across to the Point of Ayr was proposed, or a tunnel under the Dee in the original full M53 plans?

Fatalities

7. When I was younger, I heard that many years ago (perhaps the 50s or 60s, but I'm not sure), a well-known American celebrity/movie star was killed in a car crash on Hoylake Road, Bidston en route to a golf match at the Royal Liverpool golf course. Does anyone know if this is true, and if so, who was it?

8. I also heard that the rail bridge on the Bidston-Wrexham line was originally lower height where it crosses over Woodchurch Road (perhaps before the road was lowered?) As a result, an open-top bus carrying boy scouts to an event in Arrowe Park mistakenly went under the bridge and some of them were fatally injured. I've never managed to verify this story, is there any shred of truth in it?

Transport-related

9. Did anyone here ever travel on direct rail services from Birkenhead Woodside to London Paddington (or vice-versa)? If so, how long did the journey take, and how frequent were the trains? I'm just interested personally in the validity of the "use Liverpool instead" Beeching-axe arguments.

10. Before buses were deregulated on 20th October 1986, from the Wirral I could only ever get a bus to Woodside, never to Liverpool. I always had to get the train or ferry to reach Liverpool. Does anyone know why this restriction existed? I often rely on cross-river buses nowadays to save lots of time. This to me always seemed a bit of an incovenience.

Grateful for any insights on any of the above. Cheers, Paul


Edited by PaulTaters (4th Nov 2010 9:53pm)

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#441219 - 4th Nov 2010 10:31pm Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: PaulTaters]
Roslynmuse Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 25th Jan 2010
Posts: 168
Loc: UK
Re No 8 - there is a thread on here somewhere that refers (inconclusively!) to this alleged incident. Search Arrowe Park or boy scouts and it should come up.

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#441228 - 4th Nov 2010 10:45pm Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: Roslynmuse]
PaulTaters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 3rd Nov 2010
Posts: 177
Loc: Birkenhead
Thanks Roslyn,

I've now located the relevant thread here:-
http://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbth...html#Post325370

Certainly, it's tragic if it is true. This is the first time I've ever heard of this from another source. Didn't realise it was so long ago.

I notice on that thread people mentioned that it didn't seem likely, due to the height of the bridge, but as stated I think a possible answer to that was the bridge was effectively lower because the road was higher then that it is now.

Likewise as in that thread I'd also heard that the scout in question was from overseas.

Paul

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#441232 - 4th Nov 2010 10:54pm Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: PaulTaters]
phalinmegob Offline

Wise One

Registered: 26th Dec 2008
Posts: 818
Loc: tranmere
no 7 is true,but it was on corporation road i beleive and he had an italian sounding name....bonar conetti or something stupid like that,has been mentioned on this forum before,cannot remember the real name.

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#441233 - 4th Nov 2010 10:55pm Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: PaulTaters]
CrocodileDundee
Unregistered


I just spent about 15 minutes looking back over my previous posts because I knew I'd posted on that topic and when I found it I come back here to post the link and you'd already found it. Well done!!!!!!!!

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#441234 - 4th Nov 2010 10:56pm Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: phalinmegob]
phalinmegob Offline

Wise One

Registered: 26th Dec 2008
Posts: 818
Loc: tranmere
august 17th 1958 ..bonar colleano

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#441237 - 4th Nov 2010 11:04pm Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: PaulTaters]
davew3 Offline
Forum Guide

Registered: 16th Jun 2009
Posts: 1024
Loc: Wirral

I think Bonar Coleno,was killed,when in the night he came out of the dock tunnel enterance and went along I believe towards a junction of Brassey street,Beckwith st,Cavendish St and a long gone V junction on Brassey st,he hit the V,if my memory is right the place was a scrappy,anybody else on that ?.
6. heard that rumour,the route I heard was Upton,Thingwall Road,and between Irby,Pensby south of Thurstaston then across,?.
9.Did it quite a few times but I wasn't bothered as it was for work,I think they had a 4 a day,but then you could get to Crewe and go anywhere,.
4. everybody was happy with the route to the M56 and eventually to the A55,if you look at the bridge across the Dee they were preparing for the motorway,the land all the way up to the A55 is still owned by the Mof Transport.
5. the Bridge going to nowhere it was cheaper to remove than to maintain but the land is still owned by the MofT so could be put to use,their is a motorway blog with all the info.
1.I think the book "Wirral Hundred" has a bit of info saying the where the canal is at Chester,it was origionally a river,which was fed from the Dee and the Mersey.
Birkenhead and Liverpool and Chester are still places you will hear the Welsh language,if you look at the temporary road works signs around Wirral you will find most are in English and Welsh I don't see anything in it apart from they go into Wales.

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#441238 - 4th Nov 2010 11:06pm Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: PaulTaters]
Pinzgauer
Unregistered


Paul: No.2 Birkenhead had a large Welsh population way back, as did parts of Liverpool. I had a couple of friends from Anfield area moons ago whose first language was Welsh. Learned English when they went to school.

No.3. The only other Welsh name I know - and it's not strictly the Wirral is Chester - "Caer"

No.6. Yes, there was a plan to put a barrage across the Dee (Hoylake-Point of Ayr). Got the thumbs down.

No.7. It was Bonar Colleno (sp?) I remember in the local rag, he was in a sports car and got blatted in Corporation Road.

No.8. As said there's a thread about this somewhere. I think it was the original (pre-1930's) bridge over Woodchurch Rd. Open top double decker. I think the poor guy was standing up (but not for long).

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#441239 - 4th Nov 2010 11:07pm Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: ]
Pinzgauer
Unregistered


I must learn to type more quickly !!!!! Sorry dave !


Edited by Pinzgauer (4th Nov 2010 11:09pm)

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#441275 - 5th Nov 2010 6:53am Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: ]
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran

Registered: 27th Nov 2008
Posts: 7852
Loc: tranmere
Bonar Colleano was killed on Corporation rd after leaving the Shakespeare theater in Liverpool, There was however an American movie star killed while going to the Hoylake open many years ago, heard something about this recently on the TV, Need to keep digging, can't remember his name.
_________________________
God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.

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#441285 - 5th Nov 2010 7:28am Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: bert1]
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran

Registered: 27th Nov 2008
Posts: 7852
Loc: tranmere
from wikipedia

One of the most dramatic events in Eisteddfod History was the award of the 1917 chair to the poet Ellis Humphrey Evans, bardic name Hedd Wyn, for the poem Yr Arwr (The Hero). The winner was announced, and the crowd waited for the winner to stand up to accept the traditional congratulations before the chairing ceremony, but no winner appeared. It was then announced that Hedd Wyn had been killed the previous month on the battlefield in Belgium. These events were portrayed in the Academy Award nominated film Hedd Wyn.
_________________________
God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.

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#441292 - 5th Nov 2010 7:52am Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: bert1]
billy_anorak59 Offline

Addict

Registered: 4th Feb 2009
Posts: 199
Loc: Cambridgeshire
4. Lot of stuff on the M53 here on Wiki (plus links elsewhere). See: Clicky
_________________________
Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come.

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#441311 - 5th Nov 2010 9:53am Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: billy_anorak59]
chriskay Offline
Forum Veteran

Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
I did the Woodside to Paddington a couple of times. Journey time was about 7 hours. The route was Chester, where the loco changed ends, Wrexham, Shrewsbury, Birmingham Snow Hill & after that I can't remember. It didn't touch Crewe, which was LMS territory & this train was GWR. (Lime St. to Euston was about 4 hours on one of the expresses; Red Rose, Manxman, are the ones I can remember).
_________________________
Carpe diem.

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#441312 - 5th Nov 2010 10:01am Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: billy_anorak59]
PaulTaters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 3rd Nov 2010
Posts: 177
Loc: Birkenhead
Thanks very much to everyone for replying, this place really is a gold-mine of information!

Re: Number 7, Yes I've just found that Bonar Colleano has a Wikipedia page here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonar_Colleano

That's very sad, I didn't realise he was only 34. On Wikipedia, it also links to his wife's page (Susan Shaw), seems she took to drinking heavily after this and also died relatively young, a tragedy all round really.

I vaguely remember being told about the incident around fifteen years ago and this was in the Pub at the time, so it is quite possible that I have got the road wrong and it may have been this incident involving Bonar Colleano that I was told about.

As bert1 mentions though perhaps there was another incident involving someone on their way to play golf at Hoylake, I just seem to remember being told about someone on their way to play golf who got killed. But, I could have my wires crossed on that issue.

Re: number 9 the Birkenhead to London train, yes I thought it mught have only been infrequent like about four a day. I travel to London a few times each year, and I can get the time down to about 2 hours 7 minutes on the fastest services from Lime Street to Euston. Of course I have to add some extra time on though to get from Birkenhead Central to Lime street, so total journey time is at least two and a half hours in practice. This is already a great improvement from the early nineties, when it used to take I think about three and a half hours just from Lime Street IIRC. So I wondered how long it used to take from Birkenhead to Paddington.

Re: The M53 questions, I'm just going to follow the above link now provided by billy.

I shall perform a more thorough search of the forums before posting next time as it seems many of my questions have already been previously covered on here! I'm very grateful for the replies and further info. Cheers all.


Edited by PaulTaters (5th Nov 2010 10:02am)

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#441314 - 5th Nov 2010 10:19am Re: Ten more obscure Wirral-related questions [Re: PaulTaters]
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran

Registered: 27th Nov 2008
Posts: 7852
Loc: tranmere
Single questions are sometimes better Paul, that way a new thread can be concentrated on or one can be sent in the right direction.

On the question of deregulation, no expert myself, i think it was more down to local treaties between the transport companies. Not good for the ferries having buses running through the tunnel, etc.
The little crosville bus i got at the Woodchurch every morning coming from West Kirby around the late sixties was only allowed to stop till it got to Arrowe park and then if my memory serves me right wasn't allowed to stop till it got to the tech college on Borough Rd.
_________________________
God help us,
Come yourself,
Don't send Jesus,
This is no place for children.


Bertieone.

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