Forums Forums Wirral Information Law And Your Rights Rock retail car park fine

I went for a coffee the other night for a chat with my friend as his wife has just left him and he needed company. Today I woke up to a letter from some horse shit company intructed by the owners of the carpark to pay a fine of up to £75 for staying there at 10.30pm till midnight. This is so unfair and daylight robbery.

Clicky

I'm afraid this is the state we live in now. Everyone is a potential source of revenue (you don't think all these cameras are for our benefit do you?)
Any disgression (if it is one) minor or major will entail getting money from you in the way of fines
My youngest son was pulled up by the police for riding his bike with no lights (by the market well lit area) and quizzed if he had anything on him he shouldn't have then fined £30
It used to be you were let off with a warning and told to get lights which you did. Must be 1000's of mountain bikes now on Wirral which don't have lights
TC just walking along minding his own business pulled up and quizzed same

They put signs up about a year ago mate - they read...

"Private Car Park - Terms and Conditions Apply. Customer Parking Only. Parking only permitted for customers whilst shopping at the Rock Retail Park. 3 hrs Max Stay between 8am and 8pm. 1 hr Max at all other time, no return in 30 mins. £50 fine"

Must have since changed the fine amount - they also have cameras on the car park - think it was to stop all the bazzas on a tuesday night.

Not sure if you can get away with the fine - youll have to do some digging as to who is managing it and wether its legal for them to do that

Despite all the people that used to go down there, this is the first instance ive heard of someone getting a fine though

They get you coming in and out. I wonder if I can say I left via the back, came back in via the back then left out of the front. Im just so annoyed that even if your there using the place for proper reasons.....

there are people comming on the roger phillips show on radio merseyside. from what some people are saying, theyve got to prove it was you driving. you can go to the website and use the listen again it might be of some use.

Where are the terms and conditions, and where can you get them from, if they are not available at that time of night then you could (reasonably) argue that it is an unfair contract (and it is a contract you enter into when you park on private land) and therefore unenforceable.
If you decide to argue this I can give you a list of case-law to refer them to and see how they respond (usually with a "don't do it again" letter, last thing they want is for a case to be lost and everyone they have ever fined to appeal based upon it.
It is also of interest to note that as McDonalds is open at that time and the other shops close at 8pm then by changing the time limit at that time when a store is still open you are, as a McDonalds customer, being discrimiated against

Yes I know, I don't like parking companies though.

Oh, almost forgot, as it's an unmanned carpark and they do it all by cameras there are a LOT of rules about signs, data protection act, storage, who has access to the files, how long they are kept for etc etc that they have to follow, along with calibration and adjustment of the time-stamp on all the pictures, who does it, how, are they certified, etc etc You are entitled to ask these things before parting (if you have to) with any money.

Cheers guy, advice really appreciated and I will be appeling so anymore help would be very useful.

Sanch, i listened to a radio programme the other day on this private parking and the companies that operate them. It was a phone in as well and the majority of people who called in said they never paid the fine and never heard no more about it. The reason being and who ever hosted the show agreed with them. If you appeal you can only do it accompanied by the fine, so no one wins anyway and they have your money. If you don't pay the fine within a certain time they say it goes up. They went on to say that it is civil law and they have to take you to court and it costs them to much, so they don't bother, cant tell you what to do, but that was what the radio programme was about.

I tried to find that report on the radio but I couldn't, I just read this interesting blast from the past and i'll prob use the letter provided to send to them.

https://www.wikiwirral.co.uk/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/193227/2.html

the same thing happened to someone i know weeks ago, she still has'nt paid it yet as she is fighting it, she spoke to the manager in maccies about it and he said he would write a letter for her as well.

Lets hope the mafia don't own the car park, you haven't got a horse have you.

There was an Item on parking at McDonalds on Watchdog last week. It's still on iPlayer here.

its just mentioned it again now for tonights watchdog on bbc1 at 8pm

Just tell them you might like using the back door.

They'll either send someone round to f**k you or send someone round to f**k you.

I heard people dont pay the fines they get threatning letters but just ignore them cos it costs them too much in the small claims court cos there aprivate company then they dont hear nothing after a few months

The solicitor on BBC watchdog said chuck it away it's not enforcable by law

Did you watch Watchdog last night 6/5/2010! They had a solicitor on talking about this. Good advice, Watch it on BBC IPLAYER! It may prompt you on what to do next.

DO NOTHING.

Do not appeal, it is a private company, a private company is not going to accept an appeal (turn away profit). These tickets are not enforceable, and of the many hundreds of thousands of tickets issued each year, 99.9% of them don't go to court, as they know they don't have a leg to stand on.

If you are still concerned, ask the experts at http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php

What about the McDonalds night workers? Are they not parked there the whole night?

Thats a damb good point Waddi! What about the employees on the estate in general? - Do they not get tickets all the time? Or do they have to register a number plate?

If places which are open later than the 8am till 8pm cut off for car park usage know about the cameras and fines, why don't they warn their customers, it's only fair (or do they get a split in the fines I wonder? (That was just a joke).

There is a printout from management near the tills in McD's regarding this. (Or at least there was the other week.)

Here's what you need:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL70LQPHiQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8-W8inFkqQ&feature=related

It's American, but American law is based on british law.

I wouldn't worry because it's unlikely to go to court, even if it did would just be magistrates court. They are like MacDonalds themselves, they can't handle much out the ordinary and would probably throw the case out if you make things too complicated for them. It's just not worth the hassle for them for such a trivial matter.

I've never paid a single parking ticket yet.

What worries me about this is what if the private company changes tactics and starts wheel clamping instead? They will have harrassed punters desperate to get home paying these stupid fines and then it is up to the public to send them to small claims court.

Not always, DVLA clamps you are not allowed to remove (and it REALLY annoys them if you winch the car up in the air with the clamp still in place and move it to the next street, because it messes up their paperwork no end)

As it's a private company you are completely within your right to remove the clamp (as long as you don't damage it) and then just leave it in the car park, of course if someone then ran over it and damaged their exhaust for example it would be their fault as the clamp is their property.

So lockpicks at the ready then

if you went for a coffee, presumably you went to McDonalds. Did you not park in the small car park adjacent to the "restaurant"? Sounds like you parked in the spaces for the retail outlets.

Some resources to look at:

http://www.appealnow.com/
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets

Good luck mate. Mike

Where does this leave Wheel clamping companies, in relation to the angle grinder and hack saw?

Perhaps it's time to call the help of a Super Hero?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3112670.stm

I'm not sure if his services extend as far as Birkenhead?

You're not allowed to damage it, but they can only claim against the person that HAS, not the driver of the car or the owner/registered keeper unless they can prove that it is them.

There is a defence to criminal damage, if you believe that you did it in self help. So, if you think it is illegal, chop it off. Do the least amount of damage though, cut the padlock, as this is the cheapest thing to replace. And, as said, they have to prove who did the damage.

There is ways of taking off clamps without damaging them, either by picking the lock, or undoing some suspension bolts.

To be honest I dont think I matters where you park as the camera gets you coming in to the main carpark and gets you leaving the carpark.....

Sanchez, claim you just bought the car from a geezer in the carpark (he drove in, you drove out).
Honestly, these ticket people are a little bit dodgy.

Just been to the McDonalds and had a quick gander at the sign,

Only condition I could see was that you were limited to 3hours parking between the hours of 8AM and 8PM, no where did it mention night time parking, and I would take it that like most other car parks, conditions were dropped outside of the hours stated.

Also, states that its a £50 fine unless not paid within 14days, when it then goes to a £75 fine.

I would say it was an infringement on human rights to shop at a leisurely pace, especially if you were buying a computer and were swapping from Staples to PC world trying to get the best deal. You may be rushed into buying something you didnt really want at a price more than you were willing to pay because you didnt have time to think it over properly.

Unless they have changed the signs since they put them up last year, there is a 1 hour restriction at other times.



From previous thread HERE

Two other ways:

1. You say you arrived at 10:30, they say you left at Midnight, during that time are you SURE you didn't leave then return an hour later for another drink... that complies with all their terms and conditions, maybe they missed you on the film, could they check it, and send you a copy so you can have it independently verified ?

2. What is "Parking" ?
Park - verb (used with object) - to place or leave (a vehicle) in a certain place for a period of time.

Did you place it, did you leave it, did you use the drive-through and stay in the car, did you drive aimlessly round the carpark for all that time, as they only have two cameras on a single pole, one pointing as you come in, one as you leave (went down tonight to check) how can they PROVE what you did ? To Park has a definition, did you park, and can they prove it.

Ignore it, they can't do ANYTHING to you without going to court, they can't register a debt against you, because there isn't one, they can't send anybody to collect the money, because they need a court order for that. They will send you a form asking for the drivers details, and it is the DRIVER they have to claim against, not the owner or keeper, and if they don't know, they can't file a claim (okay they can, but it will fail).

If the police send a request for driver details you have to respond, there is no such rule for private companies, so unless you admit it and say "Oh yes it was me, but.. <insert excuse>" then nothing will happen.

I do like the idea of driving around and a round lol

i would love some one like you andy to test case this,
and keep us updated along the way just to show what there
doing and charging is wrong.

I believe that whilst it is the driver that is responsible for most moving offences, the registered keeper is responsible for the unattended situations.

If the police send a request for driver details, you do have to respond BUT you don't have to sign the document which prevents it being used in court. In this case as you rightly say, you don't have to respond to the private company, however they get the keeper details from DVLA.

Im going to take the advice from watch dog. Paper plane has been made, just looking for a bin....

I noticed the sign wasn't lit at night, I wondered if it has to be, also I was wondering what happens if your car breaks down whilst your in there. The idea about driving around for your entire stay is a good one too.

My car did break down once when i was in there.. i had to leave it there haha!

very true bill, i remember that car very well, what a pain in the arse it was!

Not too good, I worked on the rock a few years back, scandallas they can do this, is one small sign really enough? thery should have a big massive one as u drive in and reminder ones one islands.

When I went there last night I seem to recall that there was more than one sign, but you're right it's not very big and if you stop to read it carefully (as I did) no-one can get past you.

It is a defence to a speeding ticket if the Primary sign wasn't illuminated (not the repeaters) but I don't think that applies to Private signs they just have to be present and clearly displayed (you can't hide it behind a bush)

Looking through the internet I noticed the same company caused uproar in Hull go to > http://www.thisishullandeastriding....ines/article-1553829-detail/article.html .

Seems shoppers got together and boycotted the shops etc and all refused to pay the fines. Imagine if no-one used their car to shop there . . . I am pretty sure the shops would get involved and help then.

How do I do the thing when people say Click Here to do a link.

I think the parking time limitations are to stop commuters leaving their cars all day while travelling to to Liverpool or Chester from Green Lane station. From that point of view, fair enough, but issuing tickets for midnight parking is ludicrous.

Been thinking about this and I reckon you should just ignore the ticket.

Yer, thats all I am going to do MikeT. In all honesty I am not worried one bit, so much so In the future I am going to spend as long as I want next time I am there. I asm also very tempted to chop down the camera one night, or even day time as Im sure no one will phone the police due to the nature of the camera and its purpose in life. Its an act against humanity and a blantant insult to us all being there. Makes my blood boil.

Talking of chopping down cameras, you'll love this:

http://www.speedcam.co.uk/gatso2.htm

Funny site! Why have they set fire to the top of the Cameras when the recording part I belive is in the BASE?

In a Gatso, the picture is recorded on 35mm film and it is housed in the box at the top.

Ooooops I do appologise my mistake.

I'd guess that setting fire to Gatsos is more of a statement than anything else. We are the most camera'd up nation in the world.

Cameras will move away from 35mm film as it will negate the need to visit to collect the evidence. I saw a traffic camera today that worked only on 3G (mobile network) and it was possible to control it and get decent enough pics with relatively low bandwidth.

I've been in a number of CCTV control rooms and the picture they get off the wired cameras in shopping centres and the like are of DVD quality. The zoom and camera movement is amazing.

I'm all for cameras if it comes to saving lives; driving 70mph though roadworks is unacceptable when people are working. Using them to generate revenue off customers is stupid; particulary when places like Rock retail aren't exactly pushed for space!

It's always nice to know your not far behind me Neil!

.

The other week I did think about parking in the rock retail park and walking into the town center.I knew that theres cameras up there so parked elsewhere.I refuse to pay car parking charges in Birkenhead!!!

I'm with you Rockster. There's plenty of free parking in B'head if you don't mind a short walk.

Nigel: I'm not totally against cameras. But they moved from being speed (or "safety") cameras to a means of generating revenue a long time ago.

One use I do approve of is red light cameras. Red light jumping is epidemic in Wirral. It's not just the motorists, yesterday on my way to work a woman on a bike sailed through two consecutive sets of red lights at speed then jumped a third and nearly got flattened by an artic coming round the roundabout. (This was at the A bridge roundabout on Dock Rd in Wallasey.)

Almost wish she had been flattened. Cyclists are supposed to obey the rules of the road like the rest of us. Why is it the police are never there to see these things?

I couldn't give a crap if someone wants to drive their car flat-out on the motorway in the small hours, but I don't like people ragging down my road.

Car brakes aren't that good and most importantly human reaction times vary, not to mention the job that the brain has to do to patch up incomplete information from our eyes.

If a vehicle is travelling 50mph, there is a lot of deceleration required to stop in an emergency. In residental areas there are too many hazards; pedestrians, cyclists, driveways, junctions, children, etc etc; so the probability of an accident is far higher in these situations. I do support speed and traffic light cameras in built up places and I guess it's satisfying to see someone driving like a complete arse get flashed.

i wish some of these people who go speeding down bebington road by viki park would have more consideration, specially for people and kids tryin to get to the park. mind you people have been caught cos they do speed traps now and again.

I hate those talivans in North Wales. Positioned round corners on empty stretches of road!

Andy, I saw Chris the other night (funnily enough he was in the Rock trying to get another ticket), he said he got one before you, so no excuses darling, you should know better

Did he? we got them them at the same time. He got his through the post 1 day quicker than mine though.

Thats cos he gives the postman extra chuck

Don't think human rights covers 'shopping at a leisurely pace'.

OMG!
your garden needs watering son

Cyclists often don't know the rules of the roads... this is why I firmly believe they should have to pass a theory and hazard perception test before they are allowed to use public highways, at least some sort of CBT so they are able to deal with modern-day road/traffic situations they will find themselves in.

or to at least say thanks when you all move out of their way ¬¬

Any more news on this Andy?

no chew, we are all ignoring them tbh. Im not atall worried though thanks to watchdog!

I think and hope you will be alright, but i wonder how many people have been hung, drawn and quartered by whats been on watchdog, their not likely to come back on tele and say we fooked up, someones got twenty years.

I know brt, but looking at the law side to it they are just playing within the rules to ask for the money but they are well out of order for what they are doing.

Scan any of the letters you get, you can be our test case

ok mark I will, I have left the link to their website though at the start of this topic for anyone to see how they got me...the swines

I say, they will give up in the end if no one pays the stupid fines!!!

It is not a fine. Only the police can issue fines. As someone previously stated, google pepipoo and take their advice. I just keep hoping to get one of these tickets at Asda, Tesco, Macdonalds (not much chance there as I wouldn't go near one) but can't seem to get one to ignore. Spread the word that these people are nothing but crooks and DVLA collude with them.

Re clamps, it is illegal to clamp someone to try and elicit payment for an alleged debt. You can and must demand that the police attend if this happens. Do not be fobbed off with them saying it is a civil matter. It isn't!

Very true!

Sanchez, What is our position now? Any more news? And can we get away with not paying?

I just keep getting the usual pay now letters etc etc. They even sent me a new one 2 days ago asking me to pay the origional £50 and they will call it quits. Needless to stay that letter also got made into a paper plane and launched!

I'm not one bit bothered by these bullies and tbh if I were you Nigel just put it to the bk of your mind and dont worry. They'll get fed up of asking soon and move on!

A lot seem to forget that all these clamping firms and the set up by the DVLA to be paid to release your details to the car park company's where brought about by the LAST Goverment so as to hit the motorist.

Very true, if this is the case though they will have a DVLA marker on them or have letter heads refering to dvla. These are just companies cashing in on people that want no trouble and dont like their rights being threatened...when in actual fact they are actially just being exploited Jim.

If the DVLA isn't involved then how does the parking company know who the owner is, ie who to mail the "fine" to, if all they have is your reg. ??

Simple, they buy it from resorces, such as the dvla....but this doesnt mean they are working for them!

DVLA charges £2.50 for a vehicle keeper enquiry, anyone can apply as long as you can demonstrate "reasonable cause".

Bingo, might I also add that while anyone thinks that they own their car they dont. Have a look on your log book and you will see clearly that you are only the registered keeper. Your car, like your house is all property of number 10 and co.....

If your not happy about the dvla giving away your details then tough, you enter into their contract as soon as you give them the logbook with your signiture on it!

Any more news on what happened in the end on this one? My girlfriend was issued a ticket for parking at the Rock and she doesn't know what to do about it i.e. pay it or just toss the letter away after reading what was on here.

Be brave like Sanchez and toss it!

Well, can we have some feed back from the others who have recived tickets in the past please? Wonder how they got on?

...if you know Sanchez, you will know why that is funny

lol, cant beat a good toss up chewy, as reguards to progress...

The dept has been passed on to another comany now, who are a sister company of the origional scumbags truing to fine my ass. The dept goes up and down too with good will jestures etc. Still not one bit worried and love hearing their empty threats.

How is everyone getting on with the fines they recived? Any more news as yet Sanchez?

I havent heard from these crooks for 3-4 months now tbh. As I suspected they will write it off and go after other new cases.

Please stop calling it a fine. It's an unenforceable invoice. For providing you with that information please send me 50 quid or 100 if you can't do it within 14 days.

Sounds daft that but that is exactly what these cowboys are doing. Ignore, ignore, ignore even if they threaten to kidnap your cat.

Easy money though if anyone wants to set up one of these "companies". It's that easy, anyone can do it.

Pepipoo. Google it and read all about these scams and how to deal with them. More importantly spread the word to everyone.