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#381068 - 17th Jan 2010 1:07am Fag out of car window
dizdazdoz Offline

Wise One

Registered: 17th Jan 2010
Posts: 866
Loc: Here
Ok new here so will try and cover this correct.

Did you know you can be fined if you flick you fag end from your car ?

About 3/4 weeks back I recieved a fine through the post for allegedly this: I dont recall doing this so cant admit it or deny it, the fine is £75 or £50 if paid within 14 days.

I phoned up the number given and was told that ignorance of the law is not an excuse to break it, I asked why if I done it they never just had a word and explained the law (I was at red lights they claim), I was told they dont have to.

Asked about evidence and was told that I was seen by a litter warden who took my details and then can do a pnc check to get the drivers (me) details.

The official who allagedly seen this has said he will fight it all the way including court if I choose that option, I have sent a letter to his boss 10 days ago with my feelings etc and had no reply.

Do the people here feel this is the correct thing by either me or the council, god they could be on to a money maker here if they go to near the pubs and take all the details of the drunks, or would they as the cynic in me seems to feel I was targeted as a driver as it does not involve approaching someone.

Also would yo give your details if you dropped litter to a council official and how would they know if it was correct, I dont feel this is in the public interest and makes the figures look good about litter louts instead of targeting the problem ones who dump cars/caravans and black bags etc.

Any help or advice welcome.


Edited by dizdazdoz (17th Jan 2010 1:08am)

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#381072 - 17th Jan 2010 1:26am Re: Fag out of car window [Re: dizdazdoz]
RUDEBOX Offline

Wiki Master

Registered: 29th Aug 2008
Posts: 18996
Loc: Bob Land
I think the 'official' who will 'take it all the way' is firstly anally repressed and secondly- deserves a decent roundhouse.
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#381083 - 17th Jan 2010 2:08am Re: Fag out of car window [Re: RUDEBOX]
PaulWirral
Unregistered


For a moment there I thought Graham Norton had mooned.

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#381088 - 17th Jan 2010 2:43am Re: Fag out of car window [Re: dizdazdoz]
kimpri Offline

Forum Guardian

Registered: 29th Oct 2008
Posts: 3552
Loc: birkenhead
For him to fight it in court, He has got to be 100 per cent that you were the driver of the car and prove that you throw the fag out of the window (ie) video evidence,

OTHER WISE HES STUMPED.

Prove of ownership dosent mean you were the driver, smile
_________________________
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#381094 - 17th Jan 2010 3:14am Re: Fag out of car window [Re: kimpri]
bobi1 Offline
Smartchild

Registered: 5th Dec 2009
Posts: 572
Loc: wirral
Hang on a minute-littering is still an offence, and you have to pay the fine-try all you can to avoid it cos it's hard to prove but don't plead ignorance when flicking your stubs, that's just lame.

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#381103 - 17th Jan 2010 8:00am Re: Fag out of car window [Re: bobi1]
bert1 Offline

Wiki Veteran

Registered: 27th Nov 2008
Posts: 7827
Loc: tranmere
First of all, you wouldn't expect them to say anything else than we are going to fight it all the way, you wouldn't expect them to crumble over a phone call. I have to hold my hands up and say I'm guilty of the same offence daily, i smoke and i put my stumps out on the floor, hardly the biggest offence in the world, yet seemingly an offence all the same. If i get caught I'll pay the fine, simple as that, after all if you do take them on and lose, could there be bigger costs involved to yourself other than the fine. I'm not paranoid enough yet to think i would be singled out in this way and some official is out to get me, i wouldn't even get to the stage of asking for video evidence, i don't think we have got to the situation in this country where every crime however big or small requires video evidence before a conviction can be made. Just pay your fine and put it behind you.
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#381105 - 17th Jan 2010 9:23am Re: Fag out of car window [Re: bert1]
davew3 Offline
Forum Guide

Registered: 16th Jun 2009
Posts: 1024
Loc: Wirral
I think you can still get 1 hours free instruction from a solicitor,worth seeing if you can,you are now guilty unless found innocent and it's up to you prove you didn't do it,don't think of it as a fine,think of it as a tax or even someone picking your pocket legally :-)

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#381136 - 17th Jan 2010 12:01pm Re: Fag out of car window [Re: davew3]
Wench Offline

H4H County Volunteer
Wiki Veteran

Registered: 9th Aug 2008
Posts: 8616
Loc: Second Circle of Hell.
You're not the first - or the last

Under section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990, it makes it an offence for any person to throw down, drop or otherwise deposit in, into or from any place and leaves, anything whatsoever in such circumstances as to cause, or contribute to, or tend to lead to, the defacement by litter of any place.

If any person throws, drops or deposits anything whatsoever from any motor vehicle legal action may also be taken against the registered keeper on the date and time of that offence.

Currently, persons that commit the offence of littering can be dealt with by one of two ways. The first is through the issuing of a £75 fixed litter penalty in accordance with section 88 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. If any decision is taken to serve a Notice under this section a period of 14 days would be provided to an offender to discharge themselves of liability of conviction for an offence of littering.

If on the expiration of the above period payment fails to be produced to the specified address this would result in the instigation of legal proceedings under section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 for a littering offence.

If convicted of an offence under this section a person may be subject to a fine by the Magistrates Court of up to £2500.

Litter has not been defined in law and as a result has been given a very wide interpretation. Broadly speaking litter has been the accepted term used to refer to any item of waste that is in the wrong place and that has been caused by a human agency i.e. a person.

Recently the Clean Neighbourhoods & Environment Act 2005 has stated that material such as chewing gum and cigarette ends are to be included within the definition of litter. However, due to a lack of definition for litter (section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 states that litter shall be anything whatsoever, however clarification has been provided in the Clean Neighbourhoods & Environment Act 2005 that items such as chewing gum and cigarettes are now specified as being litter) it can be anything from a food or drink container, apple core and sweet wrapper, to a large bin bag and the contents of a bag that have become scattered across any area of land.

Estimates provided by ENCAMS indicate that it costs Local Authorities between £6 and £19 per kilometre to sweep the streets, depending on the nature of the area and the methods used. The direct cost of street sweeping and cleaning was £413 million in 1999-2000 and the cost for 1998-1999 was in excess of £400 million. Surveys also completed by ENCAMS have shown that the most common types of litter that are found within the local environment are smoking related litter, followed by fast food related litter, confectionery litter and drinks related litter.

Hope that helps you make your decision wink


_________________________
Sometimes Police Officers give more than just speeding tickets!

Itís hard to be fit as a fiddle when youíre shaped like a cello!

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#381137 - 17th Jan 2010 12:09pm Re: Fag out of car window [Re: Wench]
Wench Offline

H4H County Volunteer
Wiki Veteran

Registered: 9th Aug 2008
Posts: 8616
Loc: Second Circle of Hell.
Just as an add on, research conducted by ENCAMS in 2002, from a survey of England, indicated that the worst perpetrators were pedestrians or drivers and that these types of sources cause approximately 87% of litter, with only domestic bins (being torn or spilling over) and the management of wastes from commercial/industrial sources being the next main contributors to the presence of litter in the neighbourhood.

Further research carried out by ENCAMS in 1996, showed also that 96% of smokers aged 21-25 admitted that they threw their cigarette ends on the ground, and 46% of all smokers claimed they had never used a bin for their cigarette ends.
_________________________
Sometimes Police Officers give more than just speeding tickets!

Itís hard to be fit as a fiddle when youíre shaped like a cello!

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#381143 - 17th Jan 2010 1:00pm Re: Fag out of car window [Re: Wench]
dizdazdoz Offline

Wise One

Registered: 17th Jan 2010
Posts: 866
Loc: Here
I can see it is wrong, I DO NOT recall doing it though and that is bugging me.
My gripe really is why not a word to explain the situation, and how would they deal with it if a group was walking or standing in the street, would they really approach say 20 people at once to ask for details or does me being in a car make it easier.
I also thought that fag ends were biodegradeable until I read that they contain a % of plasic that takes up to 12 years to dissappear.
Another thing is the max fine is up to £2500 when for dog muck it is £1000, most people I know would sooner stand on someones discarded fag end than dog muck.
Just seems the punishment is harsh and also in law it has to be in the public interest to pursue the matter and I dont feel that 1 fag end is worthy, maybe throwing a chip wrapper etc is a different matter.
Will just wait and see what reply I get from WBC, was wondering if anyone had a similar thing really or constructive advice.


Edited by dizdazdoz (17th Jan 2010 1:01pm)

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#381169 - 17th Jan 2010 3:41pm Re: Fag out of car window [Re: dizdazdoz]
Bekki Offline
Newbeee

Registered: 17th Jan 2010
Posts: 11
Loc: Wallasey
I have to say that in November it was 8.30am and I was walking to university headphones in smoking away thought nothing of it and flicked the stump down a grid on the floor while walking past, and then got to the gates of my uni pulled headphones out and 2 guys ran upto me and said excuse me come here, they read me my rights and said they where not arresting my I then got irate and asked what the hell was going on 3 weeks later i got a fine for £75 I payed it but put a note in with the cheque asking for my money to go towards bins since there is only one in the road which is never emptied anyway. I have since stopped flicking the stubs in this road just incase it happens again. Also they did not fine anyone for dropping litter.


Edited by Bekki (17th Jan 2010 3:42pm)

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#381172 - 17th Jan 2010 3:53pm Re: Fag out of car window [Re: RUDEBOX]
Sanchez Offline

Wiki Veteran

Registered: 17th Dec 2003
Posts: 8019
Loc: my house
Originally Posted By: RUDEBOX
I think the 'official' who will 'take it all the way' is firstly anally repressed and secondly- deserves a decent roundhouse.


raftl
_________________________
Uncertainty or not knowing causes depression, Im happy because I know I'm going to die one day!

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#381178 - 17th Jan 2010 4:28pm Re: Fag out of car window [Re: Sanchez]
MrHouston Offline
Addict

Registered: 23rd Nov 2007
Posts: 249
Loc: Wirral
You would get a fine for throwing a sweet wrapper out your window so why complain that you threw a dirty fag end out your window, if you know you done it then face the fine.

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#381184 - 17th Jan 2010 5:15pm Re: Fag out of car window [Re: dizdazdoz]
Wench Offline

H4H County Volunteer
Wiki Veteran

Registered: 9th Aug 2008
Posts: 8616
Loc: Second Circle of Hell.
Originally Posted By: dizdazdoz
Just seems the punishment is harsh and also in law it has to be in the public interest to pursue the matter and I dont feel that 1 fag end is worthy, maybe throwing a chip wrapper etc is a different matter


It's this kind of attitude that annoys me. If we all just dropped one item of litter, we'd soon have people moaning that the roads and our communities were a mess!! Where has the pride gone!?!

Why is a chip wrapper a different matter? Surely litter is litter! I feel the same way about dog mess - I pick my dogs poop up and it infuriates me that others don't, but if they get fined then tough!! Pity you can't give them an on the spot fine if you are just a member of the public. I've lost count of the mouthfuls of abuse I've had for offering people a free poo bag to pick their dogs' mess up.

I'm a smoker, but I hate seeing the ends discarded all over the streets. Makes you wonder what kind of homes these people live in.

Would you throw a fag end on the floor in your own home!?!

Just because you don't recall doing it doesn't mean you didn't do it, and as such is no defence in the eyes of the Law I'm afraid. We do a lot of things automatically that we don't realise we've done.

My "constructive advice" would be to man up and pay the fine but don't do it again.
_________________________
Sometimes Police Officers give more than just speeding tickets!

Itís hard to be fit as a fiddle when youíre shaped like a cello!

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#381193 - 17th Jan 2010 6:08pm Re: Fag out of car window [Re: Wench]
jimbob Offline

Forum Addict

Registered: 26th Nov 2008
Posts: 1530
Loc: Birkenhead
Wench, well said.
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Ships that pass in the night, seldom seen and soon forgoten

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