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#371508 - 7th Dec 2009 2:26pm Prowess FF
MGCraig Offline
AlfaHolic
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Registered: 16th Apr 2006
Posts: 5488
Loc: Spital
I think it was Dave I was talking to the other day, and he had the view that he doesnt like single seater race cars, as they dont have roofs, therefore not real cars.




Well, I found you a couple of pics of the Prowess Formula Ford from the 70s. What dya think? raftl


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#371510 - 7th Dec 2009 2:28pm Re: Prowess FF [Re: MGCraig]
StuyMac Offline

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Registered: 24th Nov 2003
Posts: 12002
Loc: Wirralshire
Fugly!

Whilst I can appreciate the various car types used, Im deffinatly no fan of open wheel / single seaters frown

Prefer tin tops and cars you can relate to myself - but thats my opinion raftl
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#371516 - 7th Dec 2009 2:32pm Re: Prowess FF [Re: StuyMac]
MGCraig Offline
AlfaHolic
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Registered: 16th Apr 2006
Posts: 5488
Loc: Spital
Really is a design crash isnt it raftl

The rules stipulated, that in order to race in a Single Seater formula, the cockpit had to be open.
Well, they got around that by having a very small open section at the top of the cockpit, that allows the roll hoop to protrude. Gotta hand it to them for ingenuity. But still... sick


Meh, Im under the impression that unless it was originaly designed and built as a racing car, then it isnt one tease

I do love tin tops dont get me wrong, but the original racey cars of the 1930s etc were all open cockpit. Keeps that air of prestige about them laugh
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#371543 - 7th Dec 2009 2:51pm Re: Prowess FF [Re: MGCraig]
StuyMac Offline

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Registered: 24th Nov 2003
Posts: 12002
Loc: Wirralshire
The other issue is shoudl they contact, 9 out of 10 times it ends up with a car cartwheeling along, ripping suspension off, killing the driver, disabling the car and causes a long halt in proceedings....

Tin tops just bounce off each other grin
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#371548 - 7th Dec 2009 3:04pm Re: Prowess FF [Re: StuyMac]
MGCraig Offline
AlfaHolic
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Registered: 16th Apr 2006
Posts: 5488
Loc: Spital
Well, thats slightly over exaggerated raftl

With that being a case though, surely open wheel cars teach drivers valuable skills? Motorsport is a none contact sport, which seems to be forgotten bout in things like BTCC. By learning not to touch one another at high speed, the drivers will learn how to manipulate the driver in front into a mistake, or how to use the layout of the track to overtake, such as at Oulton Park. An overtaking manouvre that begins at Knickerbrook, can often last up to and only become succesful at Dears leap!

A lot of GT racers start in lower formula, such as Formula Ford or Caterhams, and never seem to bash an opponent to gain the position.


In karting, the very first step on the ladder, it is drilled into you that it is none contact. If you are perceived to have overtaken someone by using contact or driving over and above your ability, you are instantly black flagged, and have points on your licence.


Just because people have a thin piece of metal etc over their heads, shouldnt mean that contact is encouraged. if anything, it should be actively discouraged, becase a number of occasions, Ive seen tin top races red flagged, and the timetable disrupted, as someone has become trapped in the car, and they re uncertain over their condition think

Tis a tricky subject Mr BigMac
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#371549 - 7th Dec 2009 3:07pm Re: Prowess FF [Re: MGCraig]
StuyMac Offline

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Registered: 24th Nov 2003
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Im not saying contact is acceptable, just sometime inevitable.

Ive seen more retirements and races stopped in open wheel formula than closed wheel...

At the end of the day, I think its about cars I can relate to and I cant relate to these frown
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#371551 - 7th Dec 2009 3:13pm Re: Prowess FF [Re: StuyMac]
MGCraig Offline
AlfaHolic
Forum Veteran

Registered: 16th Apr 2006
Posts: 5488
Loc: Spital
Yeah, I suppose you are right.

For years all I wanted was to get an old banger...do it up and race it.

But now having worked on FF for 4 years, Ive become Biased and attached to them.
Its odd though, I despise Formula Renault, BMW and F3 though raftl

And whenever we race and are supported by like, the Fiesta cup or something, I always seem to look down on them as if they were gypsies frown
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#371611 - 7th Dec 2009 6:10pm Re: Prowess FF [Re: MGCraig]
Dave100e Offline

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Registered: 14th Jul 2008
Posts: 690
Loc: Greasby
I never said theyre not real cars but they not actual car cars though. I cant relate to them in any way at all. for me motorsport is 90% about the cars and 10% about the drivers putting on a show, so personally i dont care if the driver is Lewis Hamilton, Jesus or Micheal Jackson, and i dont care if that car can do a lap of silverstone 0.17489263859 tenths faster then an FIA GT race car. BTCC and GT racing is far more interesting then FF because every car at least looks different, and certain cars excell at certain tracks, and you often get David and goliath style dogfight (like in the 60's, when they actually where road cars). I know certain FF chassis builders and engine builders add variation to the racing but to the average fan they cant tell the difference.

You say the 1930's race cars are purpose built yet you forget the original cars, from the 1910's where road cars with bigger engines in speed trials, so it all comes back on itself. If people didnt want to prove their road cars where so fast by making 'one offs' like the blower bentleys and such, the differntiatign between race cars and road cars then you wouldnt have your race cars to start with.

I know theyre quickish with the Kent / Zetec / duratec engines, but why not put a proper engine in there for once and see how fast they really are smile
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#371626 - 7th Dec 2009 6:34pm Re: Prowess FF [Re: Dave100e]
MGCraig Offline
AlfaHolic
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Registered: 16th Apr 2006
Posts: 5488
Loc: Spital
Well, its come back round again lol

Formula Ford started off when someone decided to take a Lotus 31 GP car, and drop a lesser powered/more affordable engine in it. The results were brilliant, and paved the way for thousands of drivers ever since to race in a specifically built racing car, that was also affordable. and unlike its Rival Formula Vee (Most industrial for of racing ever) allows full suspension setups

The problem with dropping a bigger engine in it, is that if you were to give one say, a 3.0 V6, the entire chassis would need to be modified to suit. As it stands, FF2000 was created in the late 70s (2.0 Pintos) and was a catastrophic failure. The Zetecs were 1800, and can either be used in their own not very popular zetec championhsip, or in a poorly contested and covered Formula 4 championship (which also allow the 2.0s to run with them) These are basically Formula Fords with big wings. The larger engines, and higher speeds means that aerodynamics are needed, which goes against everything FF stands for...and funnily enough create so much drag that the 1600 Duratcs are faster raftl

Basically, if its not broken, dont fix it is the only answer I can give to that davus. You could give the cars bigger engines etc, but why bother when the 1600 Duratec is affordabe, and produces 0-60 times of 2.9 seconds, and a top speed of 155mph using only 4 gears. Plus, with not having aerodynamics to hamper then, they are just as fast on the straights as say, F3, but only need to slow down in the corners( which now thanks to the fact that we run on dunlops, give us more grip and therefore faster than F3 cars laugh laugh ) Also, no wings on the back means we dont create all this spoiled air, which means closer racing, and more overtking than any other form of motorsport out there.


I know you dont like it, but heres a vid from Kirkistown in 1986. The cars were still using the Kent engines, but watch it and try and tell me it isnt exciting/fast wink

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#371640 - 7th Dec 2009 7:07pm Re: Prowess FF [Re: MGCraig]
Dave100e Offline

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Registered: 14th Jul 2008
Posts: 690
Loc: Greasby
Yeah but why build a race car and put a slightly tweaked to the rules zetec? Build turbo Zetecs and let engine development matter aswell. We all know they can make a reliable 500bhp and will slot straight in smile Then you have a race car with a race engine.

FF2000 is a silly idea, Pinto's weigh the same as 14 Kents, so any torque gained down the straights (they probably wouldnt make much extra power) would be lost on the corners.

Im not doubting the point of those cars, their capability or their development over time (i.e. trying different engines etc) but at the end of the day, tehy still missign something. A roof, a set of lights and some number plates.

And dont bring that VW up from PPC, thats just silly.
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#371673 - 7th Dec 2009 8:49pm Re: Prowess FF [Re: Dave100e]
MGCraig Offline
AlfaHolic
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Registered: 16th Apr 2006
Posts: 5488
Loc: Spital
Simply for Cost Measures. Its all good and well having a large, very powerful engine in a car, but whats the point of doing that in a first level motorsport tier championship, if no-one is going to be able to afford it? Surely FF is there to give drivers a first step onto the motorsport ladder from karting. Just because it can take place, doesnt mean it should. If so, then the BTCC should have 5-600 bhp engines and simply forget about the whole S2000 idea.

F1 cars have 600bhp engines, but thanks to their materials and development, we know how ridiculous they are. They can be made to be whatever power they wanted, but that would hike costs up, and the FIA are trying to lower costs.


Power isnt everything though. Look at Stuys mate with the Starrion. Hasnt that got about 500bhp? In overly wet conditions, its simply undriveable


As for the roof, lights and number plates. I dont know of many PROPER racing cars that still show number plates, or even use their lights, apart from WRC machinery, as they need to use the roads in between stages.

And you know how much I love rallying wink
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#371722 - 7th Dec 2009 11:39pm Re: Prowess FF [Re: MGCraig]
Dave100e Offline

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Registered: 14th Jul 2008
Posts: 690
Loc: Greasby
I never said they should add more power at entry level but they definately should for higher level drivers. Do they use the 1.8's and how much power do they make? Do they get sent off to specialist builders and cost a fortune?

Ever seen the early 70's saloon car racing, where rules werent exactly strict, and cars had massive power yet where still homoligated road cars. How about the 80's with the cossies, or even group B rally. Turbo F1 cars too. all great times in motorsport because they where exciting. The touring cars nad rally cars you could relate to, they where normally based on road cars you could easily buy. you could actually tune one yourself to the levels of the race cars aswell if you had the cash.

Your right, power isnt everything but you learn to control it instead. Just because you can make 700bhp it doesnt mean you have to. Modern day electronics means adjustability is endless and you can have several maps for a single engine, all completely safe with no compromises. Like the F1 turbo cars, they could produce 1400bhp in some cases, and did in qualifying, it was controllable due to the ground force at the time aswell. But come race time, or rain, power went right back down to aid reliability and longevity and bring back some control for when they werent on full soft slicks.

Most S2000 spec cars would pass an SVA pretty easy with a set of plates, they do have full lights etc.
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#371744 - 8th Dec 2009 1:01am Re: Prowess FF [Re: Dave100e]
MGCraig Offline
AlfaHolic
Forum Veteran

Registered: 16th Apr 2006
Posts: 5488
Loc: Spital
Well, the higher level drivers move up into Formula Renault and F3 (2.0 based engines) and then after that it builds up into 3.0 V6s (F3000, replaced with GP2) and then the V8s now used in F1. Unforunately though, with the bigger engines, comes more car development, and therefore aerodynamics.

If you win the British FF championship, you win a drive in a top British F3 team, with selected rounds in other europen events. Theres 2 vids from Macau, one being the Formula BMWs, and the other being that F3 flip video I posted. Both of those crashes involve the past 2 years previous FF champions.


The only problem with all this however, is that all this extra power and aerodynamics makes racing boring. I only get excited in F1 now, concerning the first couple of laps...and then it settles down and is to be frnk, boring. Compare it to the early days with big engines and no aero aids, and it just looks gash frown

FF however, stays exciting from beginning to end, as its all down to driver skill. Different Chassis do have different advantages and disadvantages. The Ray is crap in the dry, but ridiculous in the wet. Spirit induces snap oversteer at every situation raftl Spectrum and Van Diemen very good on the straights, whilst the Mygales are superior at cornering, and build quality( If a mygale and VD collide, the VD falls to bits, the mygale drives off lol) The Juno...well frankly thats ugly (was designed in a wind tunnel, and has a 2 tiered effect on the nose).


When you said about the Average fans before, the problem with FF, is that Average fans know a ridiculous amount about them. Go and check the Ten Tenths forums, the information they bestow is incredible. As for everyone else who simply see them as a support race...theyre usually there for the British GTs..


"Oh.... I do love Ferraris, and Aston Martins, and Saleens and Moslers amd Ascaris...."

frown No imagination
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#371814 - 8th Dec 2009 11:12am Re: Prowess FF [Re: MGCraig]
Sanchez Offline

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Registered: 17th Dec 2003
Posts: 8019
Loc: my house
I like it craig, although why the tyres look like a 65 profile I'll never know?
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#371829 - 8th Dec 2009 11:42am Re: Prowess FF [Re: Sanchez]
MGCraig Offline
AlfaHolic
Forum Veteran

Registered: 16th Apr 2006
Posts: 5488
Loc: Spital
You like it???
Are you mad raftl

Theyre the classic tyres, which are still made for class E formula Fords (anything pre 1981) and as you can see, are pretty much old school road tyres.

The Avons that the A,B,C,D classes wear in clubman are all grooved, but much closer to slicks. Both types of tyre are used in Wet and dry, whereas the British Championship used dedicated wets and slick tyres wink
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