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#298637 - 8th Mar 2009 8:09pm Old Map (date?) *****
Snodvan Offline

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Registered: 19th Mar 2008
Posts: 1250
Loc: Wallasey Village
From some of my past posts folk will have gathered that I like old maps. I found another one today. I know quite a few others have an interest in maps so here goes.

I have scanned the map and the full size of the A3 scan is 5 meg or so. A reduced size copy is attached. If there is any added value from the larger size scan and Mark wishes I can let him have a the full size file and he can work out a clever way to post it or to post a link to it.

I have also attached a .jpg from a small section of the map ie a part covering my area of interest around Wallasey/ Poulton/ Bidston. This shows some interesting featrures eg

a. A reference to Sandfield Hall off Wallasey village - this was the site of the old race horse stables in what is now Sandiways Road

b. Intriguing to me is an indication of Warringtons Bridge across the Birkett on Bidston Moss more or less where Wallasey Pool (old West Float I guess) and starts to drain out into the Birkett. That makes it maybe 800 yards west of Poulton Bridge at least and probably lined up with what are now Hillside Road/ Wallacre Road.

I have lived in this area for - let us say more than 65 years - and at all stages of my life I have tramped over the Moss and associated areas, but have never heard of Warringtons Bridge.

A final thought. Throughout the History posts and others there are quite a number of images of maps or from maps. Would there be any advantage to members is there was ONE file/ post that gave links to all such posts with maps or linked to maps?

If anyone really, really wanted a paper copy of the old map now attached I may be able to organise some A3 photocopies

Snod


Attachments: Viewing Permissions May Apply. Click Me
OldMapWirral2small.jpg

OldMaplocal.jpg


_________________________
5 Precepts of Buddhism seem appropriate. Refrain from taking life. Refrain from taking that which is not given. Refrain from misconduct. Refrain from lying. Refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness

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#300171 - 13th Mar 2009 12:38am Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: Snodvan]
PaulWirral
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Snodvan


b. Intriguing to me is an indication of Warringtons Bridge across the Birkett on Bidston Moss more or less where Wallasey Pool (old West Float I guess) and starts to drain out into the Birkett. That makes it maybe 800 yards west of Poulton Bridge at least and probably lined up with what are now Hillside Road/ Wallacre Road.

Snod


I recall a reference some time ago that there was a bridge that crossed from Bidston "village" to Wallasey "vilage" and it was made of whale bone. I have no name of the bridge but...could it be Warrington Bridge?

I am..searching for the book that could provide the answer and should know by next week...

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#300184 - 13th Mar 2009 1:15am Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: ]
BigBadStuey Offline
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Registered: 5th Apr 2008
Posts: 131
Loc: Leasowe, Wirral
http://www.mikekemble.com/mside/wallasey1.html Sounds like it was a Kemble book Paul, just under the picture of the Palstave is the paragragh regarding that bridge.

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#300204 - 13th Mar 2009 10:05am Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: BigBadStuey]
Snodvan Offline

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Registered: 19th Mar 2008
Posts: 1250
Loc: Wallasey Village
Back in the year of '63 when it was cold, cold, cold for months on end I used to tramp over Bidston Moss to 'clear my head' between long bouts of studying for my final exams. That cold weather caused all sorts of strange land shifts ie ground froze and then deep crack opened. When the real thaws came early the next year a lot of soil/ mud was moved by the flowing water

. . . and I remember seeing what could well have been bits of big bones that had crossed over the Birket or one of the feeder tributaries. For sure there was something that was NOT wood or metal and which stuck out of the mud at a funny angle to a height of about 4 ft, maybe 5ft. More correct would be to say that the ground had dropped by about 4 ft exposing something unusual. The objects were blackened and crumbly, I remember digging at them with a knife. They would have been about two handspans across at least and were not "squared off" as you would expect for a piece of hewn timber. In those days I never thought of taking photos. I suppose they could have been bits of old tree trunk but the they did not seem like that when digging into them with a knife, and there were no big trunked trees on the Moss. I think what ever they were they were "put" there deliberately as part of a pathway.

I do not know whether those or the well-recorded whale jaw bones are (were) Warringtons Bridge. Mum has a copy of the enlarged part of the map and promises to ask a few othgers of the older Village residents (there will be few older than mum who is 91)

Snod
_________________________
5 Precepts of Buddhism seem appropriate. Refrain from taking life. Refrain from taking that which is not given. Refrain from misconduct. Refrain from lying. Refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness

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#300207 - 13th Mar 2009 10:31am Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: Snodvan]
chriskay Offline
Forum Veteran

Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
A nice old map, Snod; I too love maps. As far as date is concerned, it must be between 1858, (St.James' church built) & 1866 (no Hoylake railway shown).

Cheers, Chris.
_________________________
Carpe diem.

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#300307 - 13th Mar 2009 4:49pm Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: chriskay]
diggingdeeper Offline

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Registered: 9th Jul 2008
Posts: 9559
Loc: Birkenhead
This is the map commonly calld the 1859 First Edition OS Map, it was actaully initially surveyed much earlier but publication was held off (or more importantly - the print block engraving which was a major expensive project was held off) in order to include the emergent railway systems, so whilst it was the first (and initial) edition, it was actually something like the fifth revision.

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#300329 - 13th Mar 2009 9:22pm Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: diggingdeeper]
Snodvan Offline

Forum Addict

Registered: 19th Mar 2008
Posts: 1250
Loc: Wallasey Village
(mental meanderings - if those in charge think this post is in the wrong place then please feel free to move it and to remove this header note)

A walk down the lane

I posted about the reference to Warringtons Bridge shown on the 1859 OS map as somewhere on Bidston Moss, wondering whether any of the older residents of Wallasey Village may be able to give more detail about the name/ area. I also posted about my memory of seeing “some unusual items” being uncovered during/ after the big freeze of 1963.

“We” are always complaining that the older generation have not properly recorded their memories, or that their families have not tried to capture the old memories. In thinking about that today it dawned on me that I AM the older generation and I really should record my own memories.

So, today I say quietly and started by trying to imagine the roaming I used to do around that area as a younger lad than I am now. I have a good memory (for places, regrettably not for faces or names).

I used to live in a road off Nelsons Gutter ie what is now called Buxton Lane.
Either I could walk down Stonehouse Rd to the Gutter and turn left, or I could take the back-Gutter behind the houses in Russell Road and join in with Nelsons Gutter by Jack Gammage’s small market garden (now a block of garages).

From there a small path ran alongside the end of Vose’s field until it met a lane off to the right which ran down onto Mosslands Drive (“enemy territory” to us lads). The paved version of the lane is still there today. At the top of that lane there was a triangle of land full of grass & nettles – and on which I remember finding what remained of a parachute after the local wartime mums had salvaged virtually all the material to make clothing etc. To one side of that triangle of land were some very tall poplar trees – me being tall and skinny (not now) with a good head for heights (still have) I remember climbing one of those to inspect (potentially rob) a bird’s nest very high up. Probably a magpie nest. It was empty.

Carrying on past that junction in a few yards there was a lane to the left that ran up towards Wallasey Village – Folly Lane. Folly Lane ran alongside the western wall of Buxton House grounds. At this end the wall was low but further up towards the Village it was quite high – but never a deterrent to us kids. There were appropriate hand holds at strategic places and, like Gollum, in seconds we could be up the wall and running along the flat capping stones to a suitable place to come down the other side and to zip through the brambles and old shrubs that then occupied Buxton House grounds. We may of course have done the climb and decent the other way around – depending on which other street gang, policeman or the like was chasing us at the time. I was no angel.

At the top of Folly Lane where it met the Village was Olive Farm. A Major White ran it as stables when I was a lad. He or is staffs were often chasing us. If we were caught the major would use his horse whip on us.
Some years later I remember them widening Folly Lane and building council houses down one side. The houses are still there. Especially I remember the foundations to the road. There were “cobble sized” lumps of grey stone that were literally teeming with fossils. We kids had a good time that year collecting stones showing a range of things from fern-like growths to small fish (or parts of small fish) lots of what we would call curly ammonites or other shell creatures, and sometimes parts of “bigger things”. Obviously something non-vegetable that had lived at some time. By the end of the summer the fun had gone out of that game and I suppose all the mums disposed of the kids collections.

Carrying on eastwards from the junction with Folly Lane, the Gutter ie Nelsons Gutter, curved a bit to the right and to the left hand side then ran alongside the bottom wall of the old Buxton House grounds. The wall was very low here and mostly fallen down. Just over the wall was where (on dark nights towards the end of the war) I would go with mum to help collect wood ie someone had cut down one of the trees and under cover of darkness it was being dismembered into pieces transportable in handcarts or prams.

I have a memory that to the right of that part of the path there was a small and muddy pond – not too sure about that.

That path along the bottom of Buxton House grounds was maybe 30-40 yards long. It ended when it met School Lane coming down from the left. School Lane was a ‘proper’ road. To the right was another lane that went south to Mosslands drive (the lane is still there, albeit now surfaced). More about that lane in a moment.

Straight ahead was Beaufort Drive and at the end of that and at the junction with Wallacre Road were “the Swings” – now a sad mess as a result of vandalism and over enthusiastic Health & Safety edicts that took most of the fun out of such things.

Back to lane that is an extension of School Lane down across Mosslands drive and then (and now) continues down to the railway bridge.

This was “my” route to adventures on Bidston Moss ie along Nelsons Gutter, past the bottom of Buxton House and then down School Lane, past what is now the side of Mosslands School to the railway bridge.

The bridge itself was a good playground. NOT on the track I hasten to add – we all had that drummed into us, and with some minor deviations (another tale) we obeyed.

The bridge was great for hidey holes. Under the bridge there were shelves at the top of the supporting walls, even better were the holes between the bridge stonework and the metal bridge sides. Access was easy up the stonework slopes from ground level. Easy for a small kid to hide in one of those – and the noise when the train went past was super.

I remember that some years later (I would be about 14) I buried my budgie on the embankment next to that bridge. Poor thing had drowned in a glass of orange juice on the table.

At this point any intention to venture onto the Moss involved decisions.

Option 1 was to go under the bridge and straight ahead – towards Cross Lane. That route had problems. The main problem was that there were horses in the fields there and up to Cross Lane. First, I do not like big animals (still do not). Second, some of the horses were known to be aggressive – probably just inquisitive but to a 6-8 year old that seemed like aggression. A few friends had been kicked by horses in that field. Finally, if the people owning or tending the horses caught you then you were in for a good smack. We still went that way sometimes, but only after we had spent a bit of time in the hidey holes on the railway bridge to sus out that all was clear. That ahead route was the quickest to get to the back of Wards car spares area or the brickworks – both illicit play areas.

Option 2 was to go under the bridge and along the south side of the railway embankment until you were clear of the “horse field” and then to go through the fence and over the Birket tributary and onto the Moss. The problem with this route was that the south side of the embankment was heavily overgrown and it was a significant job to make a path through all the vegetation. The plus side was that if you were very lucky you may see a grass snake sunning itself in one of the more open areas. I suppose I saw a dozen in as many years. The access from the embankment onto the Moss would be more or less where there is now a line of trees and a mini-river between the Cross Lane rugby field and the new (and good) urban park. I guess that min-river is all that is left of the Birket in that area.

Then you were FREE to wander all over the Moss. Sure, sometimes the farmer came to look at the sheep that grazed on there at the time, but there was never any real bother from him to us kids, indeed we would often tell him the whereabouts of any dead sheep or those that we had seen limping / looking unwell. Mr Williams I think his name was.

Option 3 (my usual route) was not to go under the bridge but to go along the northern side of the railway embankment until you met a drain pipe (say 4 ft across) that ran under the embankment and led to the same line of trees mentioned in the above paragraph. The advantage of this route was much less vegetation so progress was quick and easy.

ALSO, if you did not go through the tunnel onto the Moss but continued straight ahead – you came to the major kids ‘playground’ of the area – The pond called the Triangle. I must have spent half my childhood around that pond.

The pond is shown on the 1899 2nd edition map sheet V111.14 as being between Seacombe Junctions Nos 1, 2 and 3. Also on that map, just next to Seacombe junction 3, you can see the drain that leads under the railway embankment and into the Birket.

So, let us go through that tunnel and onto the Moss. Usually we did follow the stream. There was a point (shown on both the 1899 and the 1859 maps) where the Birket starts to form an Ox-Bow ie there is a definite loop in the flow just before the Birket is joined by the Fender.

Across the Birket at that loop were a couple of iron RSJs (or what I would now call RSJs). There were no cross planks so you had to be very careful walking along the maybe 5” wide metal tops. Once across you could then head towards the Fender – and as I remember it on the other side of the fender was the golf course – a place where we did not venture. often our intention in roaming this far was to then follow the Fender to Bidston - returning to Walalsey Village by way of Bidston Footpath. On long summer days a gang of us may have started out early and even ventured onto Bidston Hill.

Now, the point where I saw “strange objects” being exposed from the mud after the deluges post the 1963 big freeze was somewhere fairly close to that loop in the Birket. I cannot say exactly where but think it was just south of the main loop, certainly before the Birket met the Fender.

Enough for today. I will think more; will talk with other ‘oldies’ and maybe trigger some more memories
_________________________
5 Precepts of Buddhism seem appropriate. Refrain from taking life. Refrain from taking that which is not given. Refrain from misconduct. Refrain from lying. Refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness

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#300359 - 13th Mar 2009 11:29pm Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: Snodvan]
mindplayer Offline
Addict

Registered: 19th Aug 2008
Posts: 220
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Great narrative Snod, which I could remember half of that. I am flat out remembering what I did yesterday never mind 50 years ago.

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#301411 - 17th Mar 2009 10:51am Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: mindplayer]
BigBadStuey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 5th Apr 2008
Posts: 131
Loc: Leasowe, Wirral
Speaking of old maps I managed to salvage a few from the recycling bins where I work not too long ago, they're full size (A0!) so scanning makes them a bit difficult but they're quite intriguing, they're definitely from a former architect or some planners as it shows what they had earmarked for development over the old Heswall railway station on the Hooton-West Kirby Branch. Any ideas as to how I can scan it so that it's a) small enough to fit onto a smaller size and b) to break it up into A4 bits. Some are Wirral (but not North Wirral, I couldn't get those, extends up to Cammell Lairds/Storeton/Heswall though) and a fair few are Liverpool. Any help would be good.

Also, back on topic, I can see in the original map that Wirral still had no real docks at all plus you can see the grid arrangement of Birkenhead quite clear too. Just interesting to me smile

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#301412 - 17th Mar 2009 11:03am Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: BigBadStuey]
Mark Online   Reading


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Registered: 9th Nov 2003
Posts: 20963
Loc: Wirral
Scan them A4 by A4
Then you can e-mail them to me and i can piece them back together
and then zip them up for all to see.


Example
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#301413 - 17th Mar 2009 11:18am Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: Mark]
chriskay Offline
Forum Veteran

Registered: 25th Oct 2007
Posts: 4868
Loc: shropshire
A method I've used with success is to pin it to an evenly lighted wall & photograph it. Or maybe use flash.
_________________________
Carpe diem.

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#302200 - 19th Mar 2009 7:09pm Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: chriskay]
BigBadStuey Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 5th Apr 2008
Posts: 131
Loc: Leasowe, Wirral
Originally Posted By: chriskay
A method I've used with success is to pin it to an evenly lighted wall & photograph it. Or maybe use flash.
I only have a cra.. not very good camera! But I'll give that a go when I have a spare few moments. Mark, the only problem I have with that method is folding it up as I have a flat-bed scanner which I'm not keen to do, they're in decent shape but some are a bit pants, there's a shop on Seaview Rd that does scanning from A4-A0 I think, I'll see if it's a worthwhile service.

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#302214 - 19th Mar 2009 7:54pm Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: BigBadStuey]
Snodvan Offline

Forum Addict

Registered: 19th Mar 2008
Posts: 1250
Loc: Wallasey Village
I've been hunting through my files

Could THIS be Warrington's Bridge? From the line of sight to St Hilary's and what I think is New Brighton Tower the location will for sure be somewhere around the end of Wallasey Pool although a bit further over towards Bisdston & Moreton than I expected

Snod


Attachments: Viewing Permissions May Apply. Click Me
Bridge-Bidston_Moss.jpg


_________________________
5 Precepts of Buddhism seem appropriate. Refrain from taking life. Refrain from taking that which is not given. Refrain from misconduct. Refrain from lying. Refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness

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#303333 - 22nd Mar 2009 9:03am Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: Snodvan]
greasby_lad Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 17th Jan 2009
Posts: 146
Loc: Wirral
Hi Snodvan - I tried to send you a Private Message but the system says that you are over your Private Topic limit.

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#308777 - 12th Apr 2009 12:01pm Re: Old Map (date?) [Re: Snodvan]
greasby_lad Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 17th Jan 2009
Posts: 146
Loc: Wirral
I don't think that Warrington's Bridge survived the culverting and land reclamation shown on the 1875 map. You don't need a bridge if you've hidden the stream!
The photo has clues to the position of the bridge that it does show. The main evidence is the relationship between St Hilary's church and its old tower - the fact that there is no visible gap between the buildings and yet the east wing (actually, either the east wing or the porch) is visible means that the angle of view can be calculated (within quite a small range). The method is too long-winded to post here, but the conclusion is that the photo shows one of the six footbridges leading to Leyhall or Ley Hall. It is probably the footbridge closest to the railway at SJ293913 on the 1910 map. The photo shows many railway-related items - freight wagons, signals, signal box, horizontal line of smoke/steam.
If this is the right bridge, it also allows New Brighton Tower to be the structure shown to the right of the church.


Attachments: Viewing Permissions May Apply. Click Me
Bridges 1910 map.jpg

Description: Footpath to Leyhall




Edited by greasby_lad (12th Apr 2009 12:08pm)

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