What do we know about Wirral gun sites from the second world war? I know about the one on the sandhills at Wallasey. Was there one by Bidston station?
Father used to tell me about the mobile one's that fired off a few shots and then moved. For what reason I don't know because I can hardly imagine the Germans were going to hang around to plot where it was!
I think I have heard of a static one at Storeton as well. Has anyone ever researched this?
There was one at Thurstaston,right by the visitor centre.The mounds are still visible where they were filled in.I am sure the centre has some information on this.
I've been trying to find the reference, but can't. From memory, there was a gun emplacement between Storeton & Brimstage. If I can find the details, I'll post here. In the meantime, this little snippet I happened across in my search might be of interest.
Interesting read that Chris. There was a lot of concrete by Bidston station that they used to keep horses in and I figured it was some kind of gun site from the way it was formed. I have some recollection of being told that people in the shelters under Bidston hill could hear it being fired off in the raids. Perhaps I read about it?
Does anyone remember the anti aircraft gun they had on fort perch rock? Used to climb on and "train" it. The Artillery guys from the fort used to go into my dads aunties little cafe in Balmoral road and when the Sergeant came looking for them, she would let them escape out the back door.
I may have the location wrong but my father once told me they had dummy sites around Bidston where they lit fires to mislead the Germans into dropping their bombs on waste land. That seems a bit close to the docks and built up areas for my liking even if there wasn't as much there as now?
They had rockets on the site in the sandhills. I can remember going to that place in the fifties (sixties?) and the public toilets were old army one's. I don't think anyone ever claimed to have knocked out any German planes with rockets but must have scared them a bit all the same!
I have been told of gun sites on the hill but can not find any info on any.I have found 1 of the sites on the hill and and there is names and dates carved into the rock.One dated 1940.
There was one at Thurstaston,right by the visitor centre.The mounds are still visible where they were filled in.I am sure the centre has some information on this.
The only thing I know about the Thurstaston installation is that, under the grassed area, it's still all under there for the most part.
I`m almost certain they have info and pics of the site when it was partilaly filled,in the visitor centre.I seen them somewhere and 99% sure it was there.
Thats a good site,I`ve found a similar site wether it tells us anymore I don`t know yet.Still stuck on pastscape.Great site.Gives info on the sites,what they where used as,grid refs and location maps.
Using this site, I've found the reference to the Storeton anti-aircraft battery; thanks for the link Dave. http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/search/fr.cfm?rcn=CBA_DOBNAI-4054&m=0 Using the 8 figure (very accurate) grid reference, here's a map of the location. The yellow pin points at the gap where the entrance would have been, which is still in the hedge on Red Hill Rd. & the red pin is where the battery was. It might be interesting to go & see if there's any evidence left, but looking at the photo, I think not.
does anyone have any info on the boxes at either end of "the white bridge" between port sunlight and bromborough (new chester road)? i cant see them on google maps which is strange, i was sure they were still there lol
I was told they where meant to protect shipping that came in from the mersey directly to levers in sunlight.Under the main building (lever house) there was an munitions factory and they used to assemble american jeeps at levers as well and then ship them back out.Lever bros had it`s own wharf.
They are pill boxes to defend the bridge. Anyone invading from the shore at New Brighton or Moreton would have to come along certain roads before breaking out into open country and these were put at strategic points. There is one on Brimstage road as well plus of course the one where that woman was murdered back in the fifties by Woodchurch road. That would protect the bridge over the road because the Germans could and would have used rail bridges if road bridges were blown up. They would have machine guns in them and possibly have a mine field in front to deter tanks.
When I was a lot younger, on the Leasowe embankment there were quite a number of these pill boxes plus "tank teeth". i.e. concrete pyramids to stop tanks.
Given that we are on the wrong side of the country, an invasion here was unlikely but they had to take precautions just the same.
Using the 8 figure (very accurate) grid reference, here's a map of the location. The yellow pin points at the gap where the entrance would have been, which is still in the hedge on Red Hill Rd. & the red pin is where the battery was. It might be interesting to go & see if there's any evidence left, but looking at the photo, I think not.
I've just come back from here, well Storeton woods, I went for a quick wander along the old tracks to the tunnel under the road. I actually drove past this on the way home, if I would have known I would have stopped and had a gander whilst there was still some light left.
I may have the location wrong but my father once told me they had dummy sites around Bidston where they lit fires to mislead the Germans into dropping their bombs on waste land. That seems a bit close to the docks and built up areas for my liking even if there wasn't as much there as now?
Your father was right. Here's an extract from "Up Our Lobby", talking about the West Cheshire Golf Club.
Nice one Chris. Thought he was telling tall stories but no! Okay I thought I had posted this yesterday but can't find it so don't know what happened.
He also reckoned one of our planes either Spitfire or Hurricane ditched in the docks and before the pilot could get his feet wet they had hooked it up to a dockside crane and lifted it out of the water.
Even for my father I find that a bit of a tall tale. For one the pilot would have got out rather quickly I would have thought in case it sank and for another it isn't so easy just to hook onto an aircraft. If anyone can prove otherwise I will apologise to the old man even if he is dead and gone.
My folks often told me of the gun site in Holm Lane, Prenton. Our lounge ceiling in Ennerdale Rd. was supposed to be badly cracked by the gunfire from Holm Lane. I recall them claiming under the "War Damage Scheme". We got a new ceiling out of it anyway !! The phrase "milking the system" springs to mind. The nearest bombs to us landed in Northwood Road, which is a fair distance away.
Looking at maps and aerial photos for Storeton AA Battery, just southwest of where Chris marked there is some interesting marks on land in the 1970 aerial photo, these have gone by 1997 aerial photo, but the wooded area doesn't appear on maps before WW2. Some current maps include the road/paths through the wooded copse even though they stop dead at the open fields.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Sorry to disagree Pinz, but a number of houses opposite the Holm Lane AA site got damaged on 7/8 April 1941, I don't think there was a direct hit though.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
This is a 1946 aerial photo of New Brighton. If you look in the bottom left you will see a white round circle. This is Vale park and it was the site of a barrage balloon.
I hope it comes out okay as I have had to resize it. If you look closely you can see missing houses where bombs have dropped. Vaughan road and Dalmorton being good examples.
Theres a BIG AA site in Puddington, near where the old pig farm used to be! In the middle of a large field, there is a small cro of trees and based inside was a large AA battery, complete with concrete bunkers, ammo bins and dugouts! We used to use it as our base / training ground, when i was in a paintball team years ago. Should still be there, bit overgrown by now tho!
No problem dd. Ennerdale Rd. is next road down from Prenton Dell Rd. when heading for the Woodchurch Rd. railway bridge.
Had never heard of the bomb(s) that fell in Holm Lane. It does make sense though. Presume Fritz was trying to put the gun site there out of action. I'm assuming that the gunsite was the same plot that was marked "Hutted Camp" on older maps (see Chris's excellent map posts of a few weeks back). I do remember the camp was home to Hungarian refugees after the uprising in 1956. Don't think it was open for long. The refugees were found more permanent housing fairly quickly.
Some foundations lasted until the "new" houses went up on the site in the '70's (?)
Looking at maps and aerial photos for Storeton AA Battery, just southwest of where Chris marked there is some interesting marks on land in the 1970 aerial photo, these have gone by 1997 aerial photo, but the wooded area doesn't appear on maps before WW2. Some current maps include the road/paths through the wooded copse even though they stop dead at the open fields.
Went here today to see what I could find, what seems like foundations are still there, took a few photos to show you what's there.
Looking at maps and aerial photos for Storeton AA Battery, just southwest of where Chris marked there is some interesting marks on land in the 1970 aerial photo, these have gone by 1997 aerial photo, but the wooded area doesn't appear on maps before WW2. Some current maps include the road/paths through the wooded copse even though they stop dead at the open fields.
That 1970 photo tells a lot. It seems to me that those tracks mark the site & that the grid ref. in the archive is slightly wrong. They give SJ 3100 8394; the point in the photo where the track makes a 90 deg. turn is SJ 3105 8390, so about 50 metres out in one direction & 40 metres in the other. It also seems that the entrance was not from Red Hill Rd. but from Brimstage Lane, through what was then little more than scrub land. The formation of the entrance is very clear; it would have to have taken large vehicles. @ Neston Vasey: thanks for the pictures; I assume they are all in the woodland on Brimstage Lane?
Most interesting. Has the Starfish sites too. Starfish was the code name for the sites where they lit flares or had lights to misdirect enemy bombers. With regard to the Storeton AA site, interesting to see that they have it at the point where I placed a red pin in an earlier post & not nearer the wood as I suspected when I saw the 1970 photo posted by diggingdeeper. Of course, it's possible that those co-ordinates come from the same source, (very likely in fact), and that they are not accurate. Still, I've no idea how big these sites were so maybe both locations are within the site. The markings of tracks on the 1970 photo together with Neston's photos of the remains in the wood are very compelling. It's possible that there may still be someone local who could give a certain answer. It's at times like this that I'm sorry to be so far away.
In an attempt to locate the gun site precisely I'm enlisting the aid of the National Monuments Records who, in the past, have provided some very useful old aerial photos, e.g. of the Storeton radar site at the top of Lever Causeway. I've given them the grid ref. of the gun site so we'll see if there are any photos of it after the war. Unfortunately, I've just had an e-mail saying that at present, searches are taking about 25 working days, then there will be a further delay while they send the pics., so don't hold your breath.
Just been looking at the location of the New Ferry site - this looks extremely close to the outdoor pool, I am not sure when these baths were built but I would have guessed before ww2.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Well, I've now had the pictures I was waiting for. They settle the matter once & for all, as they are some of the clearest aerial pics I've seen. The buildings are extensive & some remains are still there, as photographed by Neston Vaysey. Although the aerial pictures seem to show several bases, the records show that this site had just two 3.7" guns. Looking at the pics, there's not a tree in sight, so the woodland which is there now is only 50 years old. I know a lot of it is conifer, but some of the hardwoods at the edge of the road look older. Here's a link to the National Monument record of the site http://www.pastscape.org/hob.aspx?h...source=text&nmr=&defra=&p=0# Here are the aerial pics; the 1946 one is at a scale of 5500:1 & the 1955 one is at a scale of 5000:1. this equates to about 12 inches to the mile. The 1955 is taken from a height of 15,000 Ft. Using these data, I've measured the size of the site & it was about 150 yards by 250 yards (I'm sure you youngsters can convert this to metric) I've included a modern aerial shot for reference. It would be interesting to know when the site was finally cleared; it doesn't seem to have been touched even 10 years after the war ended.
Well done Chris. They are indeed very clear photo's. It backs up my memories of when I used to mooch around there whilst still at school. 1958/9 ish. I couldn't recall any woodland at all. I remember the bunkers (?) being blown up by the T.A. I'd guess at early '60's ? You can even make out in the 1955 shot, the concrete fence posts around the gun emplacements!
The last time I passed this site, it was dark. I'd appreciate it if someone could take a pic. of the huge sandstone gateposts on the road & measure them; I reckon they're about 18" square. Also, a pic. of the trees near them.
has any one got any info on what was in the field at the top of levers causeway, was it a radar centre or something? used to play in that when i was younger cos me grandma and grandad lived on mount road oposite. I know its gone now but always wondered what it was
Yes, it was a radar station. There's a thread I started about it somewhere, with aerial photos. I used to play there after the war too, mikeyfreedom. It would be good if you, jimbob & mikeyfreedom could let us know a bit about yourselves in General Chit Chat/New members. I've got a feeling you may have much to contribute. There are many threads still searching for information.
Just to add a few pictures I've got of the Storeton Ack Ack site. The one from 1940 shows a very advanced stage, about a year after the start of the war. 1979 & the site is still clear but the buildings are gone & the woodland grown. By 1987 there's virtually no more evidence than there is today.
The 1940 picture shows only 2 AA gun sites, the 1955 photo shows 4 gun sites, so there must have been some expansion, 1955 also shows a lot more buildings expanding outwards.
Brilliant Chris, that 1940 picture makes alot more sense of what I found - I think all of the base slabs of the bigger buildings are still there.
To keep everybody else up to date, I video'd round this site, unfortunately if the video is reduced down to youtube size it is cr@p so I won't be posting it - in full quality the half hour vid doesn't even fit on a DVD.
I will get round to posting some stills from the video together with descriptions of approximately where they are. I have been meaning to go out with my GPS to tie down exact positions, but the weather has gone t*ts up every time I have planned to go out and I wanted to do some still photos.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
I've had a look at the NMR photo of Storeton AA - if you look closely, in the field on the other side of the road, is the ramp for the GL radar, which was required to get it above the 85 yard diameter octagonal wire mesh mat. It's obviously disappeared since. the other arrows are what I guess are the control bunker and sewerage works. I've tagged some photos on of Blyth Gloucester Farm AA site showing an intact GL ramp. The landowner there had no idea what all the concrete bits were.
The GL mat was a 85 yard diameter octagonal wire mesh, usually at about head height (yes - chicken wire) which was found to improve the early gun laying radars, by providing them with an artificial horizon. Later models did not need them. Note that the Storeton AA site photo does not show it, so it was added later, and removed by the later photos:
Blyth AA aerial - note the octagonal trackway around what was the GL mat shape - and the stores underneath it (unusual):
Anybody got any info on the AA gun that use to be towed round the streets of Birkenhead, stopping on pieces of waste land to take a pot shot when an air raid was on, then trundle off to a different spot and do the same again. It use to come to a piece of land next door but one to our house in Peel Street Tranmere and fire a shot then move away. My dad said it always sounded as if our house had been hit when it fired a round. We where all in the cellar of our house when this use to happen.
Ships that pass in the night, seldom seen and soon forgoten
Never heard about that, Jim. However, on a visit to the quarry opposite the top of Green Lane, where there's an entrance to the Tranmere Tunnels, during a conversation with the owner he pointed out a bricked up section of the quarry wall. He said that there was an AA gun kept in there & when Laird's was being bombed they used to bring it out & shoot. There was another, smaller, bricked up part which he said was the ammunition store. Here's a pic. of the larger one.
On a separate subject, do you remember the smoke generators? I used to see them on Borough Rd., near the Rovers' ground.
Once the Prince of Wales {battleship} was far enough advance in her build the AA guns which where part of her armament where installed and brought into action when there was air raids prior to her been moved up the Rosyth out of harms was to be finished. I use to think those smoke generators where wagons on fire till i was told different
Ships that pass in the night, seldom seen and soon forgoten
Wow,smoke generators.Now that`s a new one.Did not know anything about them.I am guessing but it sounds like they are to provide a blanket of smoke to conceal key targets.
Wow,smoke generators.Now that`s a new one.Did not know anything about them.I am guessing but it sounds like they are to provide a blanket of smoke to conceal key targets.
Spot on. I only have vague memories of them & can't remember ever seeing one in action, but it sounds as if Jimbob did.
Chris,with the amazing resources you have,is it possible you can get a pic of one of these generators as I have never heard of them never mind seen one.
Chris,with the amazing resources you have,is it possible you can get a pic of one of these generators as I have never heard of them never mind seen one.
It's not that I have any special resources, but I do have time, which is a great resource. I'll see if I can unearth anything, but there may be something in the archives. I would imagine these things would be supplied or at least maintained by the local authority.
That's very useful to know. Have you got the address of the record office? maybe someone could go & have a look. I'd do it myself, but it's quite a trip. Even better if the info. is available online.
Thanks for the pics, Derek. Just to be clear, those are not the type of gun used at Storeton. At a guess, those pics are of a ship mounted gun & I'd guess the calibre to be 20 or 30 mm. The Storeton guns are recorded as being 3.7" calibre, which is about 94 mm.
Unless I'm mistaken, that's the pillbox on Brimstage Lane, (you can see the communications mast at the top of Rest Hill road), in which case it's not a roman road but Lever Causeway, which dates back to the 1920's. It was William Hesketh Lever's (later Lord Leverhulme) private road from his home at Thornton Manor, to Birkenhead & his factory at Port Sunlight.
your completely right chris, as the paths that you were able to walk up and down near to this turrat, aka his drive way are now labled as private and not public.
Very sad actually.
My friend Mark used to live in the cottage opposite the mere in rabymere, which was part of leverhulme's estate, but when the Americans took over they turfed him out to a smaller cottage and made many of the public walks a no go zone.
Uncertainty or not knowing causes depression, Im happy because I know I'm going to die one day!
Yes, it's sad. Lord Leverhulme's causeway was always private, except for the bit from Storeton to Mount Rd., but he himself was a great public benefactor (just look at Port Sunlight & the Lady Lever art gallery) & as far as I know he never stopped reasonable public use of the causeway. One of the problems now, of course, is the matter of public liability; (cue Jaci). I guess if they made it open to the public & someone tripped & fell they could be sued for failing to maintain it. Mind you, the way things are today, if a burglar trips in your house or garden they can probably sue. End of rant.
Well, I think I've waited long enough & I've had no reply from the firm, Edmund Kirby, Architects & Surveyors, who deposited the records with the Liverpool Record Office. They are there under the ref. No. 720/KIR/1186-87. It seems that the Storeton gun site was owned by the Leverhulme Estate & rented to a local farmer. Apart from the original Form of Requisition, and one from 1943 expanding the site, all the papers are to do with the demolition or re-instatement of the site. I've put them in date order. Number 11 is the continuation of Number 10 (Letter from the Civic Trust), which contains a delightful assessment of the abilities of the local sapper regiment. The next post will have a few plans which I was able to see; pity they're not better quality.
That is excellent Chris. It isn't very often that we get to see this "part" of the enigma wrapped around WW2 structures. I wonder how much more of this standard of notes is hiding in archives, only to be chucked at some future date.
I note that the plans include the field on the other side of the road where the GL radar ramp and wire mesh mat was !
Hey there, Not sure its been mentioned as I'm not about to go trawelling through all 7 pages of responses, but there used to be a big gun battery at the top of Levers causway where it meets Mount road. It used to be in the field that is now between Stanley road and the causway. It was hugh, or seemed to be when I played on it as a kid?
I wonder if I am the most southerly of all firbobs?
In previous posts it's been well documented. ChrisKay obtained some RAF (?) aerial photos of the site showing the buildings/concrete bases. Put some time aside and have a trawl through the threads/posts.
Maybe someone can highlight the previous posts ?
I too used to mooch about the site when I was at school. Seem to remember some were partly flooded and didn't smell too good !!
Have had a look at the Thurstaston AA mounds, there are bits of concrete popping through in places and they are at all angles so either there is a lot of rubbish on top of the AA sites, or they have been broken up.
The anoying thing is, I used to go there before they landscaped but I remember what was there other than the site was much more overgrown.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
I didn't realise there is a reasonable amount of remains of the Bidston Gun Site, just off fender lane. Will try and photo it tomorrow night.
Two gunsites are in top left corner with a building inbetween, this may be the command/control centre. Just beside the road in bottom right is also something that seems to be from the same period.
Last edited by diggingdeeper; 16th Jun 200910:24pm. Reason: Stamped
Here is a map of the Camp Huts near to Oxton HAA gunsite (Mersey H/H32). They are located on what is now the central rugby/cricket field between Townfield Lane and Holme Lane. The rough ground to the east of the camp is still a patch of rough ground.
The gunsite itself is not marked on the map, as is often the case.
I remember the Oxton HAA "camp" being used to house the refugees that came over here after the Hungarian uprising in 1956 (?).
Only a kid then. Used to go up Holm Lane to get in the back way to the B'head Brickworks claypits. Like a moonscape. Great place to play ! Was told there were "foreigners" in the camp - don't go near !
Does anyone have any pictures/information on the gun sites at Leasowe & New Brighton? I used to play there as a kid & well remember being able to operate the guns at Leasowe, one lad on each wheel to rotate & train the gun, until we got chased by the bloke who lived in the pre-fab!!
Tatey,Under the fencing head down along the trenching,we were there when the army left in trucks, they left over 3 days,remember sitting on the gate waving to them as they left,my memory is short on how many guns their was,I think it was 4 all on the sea end of the site,could never figure out how they would shoot at enemy ships with the sandhills in the way,the poor guy in that bungalow must have been driven mad with kids popping up under the fencing all over the site.
Good fun eh! I don't remember the army being stationed there, but do remember when the T.A. (I guess)being billeted next door, closer to Wallasey end of the cinder track & performing sentry duty using pickaxe handles instead of Lee Enfields?
After it rained we used to go & collect shell cases from between the fencing & the sandhills. Must have had hundreds of 9mm & .45" shall cases at home.
Here's a pic of a 3.7" gun & crew. There were 4 of these at Storeton. The pic. is from the book "Roof over Britain", published in 1943 by the Ministry of Information. It's one of a number of papers & books which I got recently from diggingdeeper: thanks, DD. Quite a number of similar books were published during the war, presumably to keep morale up. Most of them had the following message on the publication page. "There are many men and women in the Forces who would welcome a chance of reading this book. If you hand it in to the nearest Post Office, it will go to them".
In the same series, I have Coastal Command, Fleet Air Arm, Bomber Command and Railways at War. I bought them over 30 years ago (shock horror) in Leeds, they all made interesting reads.
Must say after reading through this thread about Storeton an Raby Gun sites I'll have to add some info, my father used to farm the land around these sites and as a kid used to see the remains of the above sites, we are talking 35 years ago and even then you could just pick out the foundations in the land, there was also a GL ramp by the pillbox on brimstage road just before Clatterbridge roundabout but no longer exists only in the last 15 years has that been knocked flat, also talking to the old generation from Thornton Hough they said on the private roads or the "private drives" as we called them where all the long rows of elm tree's used to be was where all the armoured vehicles used to be stored apparently there was miles of them, my first job was working for Lord Leverhulme in Thornton Hough and our workshop was the same one as the troops used to repair the vehicles even the work pit is still there. seeing those letters to Mr Williams brought back memories as he used to be my boss before he retired, I used to listen to the old uns for hours talking about the german bombers starting their bombing runs over Storeton and Thornton Hough one guy stil live up Rocklands Lane and can still remember them like it was yesterday. Quality thread guys if i can dig up more stuff about the area will deffo put it up on here
Does anyone have any information on the site that we used to call the 'Rabbit Warren' in Storeton. It is a mass of pine trees at the moment, but there are still the drains and footings in the woods, but I do not know what was actually there. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
the rabbit warren was of of lever causeway 1/2 way down on the right it was a bunker coplex I used to play on it as a kid ,think its flattened now ,still some sites at the backof storeton woods off of rest hill rd heading to brimstage ,think it was a compound for ack ack ?
does anyone have any pics or information of the anti-aircraft gunsites, that were where the roundabouts are on new brighton seafront. near the boating pool,at the bottom of harrison drive from memory,i remember them from a kid but can find know record of them anywhere. i found the pic of dalmorton rd very interesting as i used to live there
I've been looking for pictures but haven't found any, the location of the gunsite was further inland than the roundabouts, by the brick wall infront of the tower block.
The other gunsite was further west, way past the Derby Pool and is still known as the Gunsite Car Park. Likewise I have no pictures for this site either.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Been using Dava2479 link http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/search/keyRes.cfm on the 1st page of this topic which I could never get working until a few days ago and have been looking at the defence of the nation database and found number of places in the area,it gives a war manufacturer in the boating lake at New Brighton as it gives OS map positions and latitude and longtitude positions,I presume the real position should be the cellars under the indoor fair,but it gives a decoy site at Thurstaston on a field at SJ 2446 8333, W 003 08 04 N53 19 29 ,as destroyed,it gives the other site as in fair condition,the slab on the side of the railway enbankment which I have on here as a photo intrigues me it is more or less inline with that area,next to Heswall Fields,it also gives a position for a military building Wittering Lane and Delvour Road which I must check out.
The official locations of a lot of the WW2 sites have been found to be misleading, sometimes they are based on the entrance to a site which can be two or three fields away from the gunsite or whatever.
The decoy site at Thurstaston IS destroyed, however the control bunker is still extant.
I am in touch with the relevant people at DoB and hope to improve their records, they also asked me to provide photos of sites that have remains but are marked as destroyed or unknown. This is a much bigger job than I thought when I volunteered, one of the biggest problems is trying to identify what building/structure each remain is - they don't want a vague decription of gun hold-fast they want to know the size of gun etc, as many guns were replaced then you have to try and find if the site was changed or not.
The KMZ file for Google Earth is useful but you require Google Earth installed on your computer, its not always the best behaved of applications (I specifically don't recommend using street-view on a local PC, stick to using the internet version for that).
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
The problem with WW2 map references, is that the Ordnance Survey have re-projected the OS maps since WW2, and everything simply - changed and moved.
The problem with decoys is that some occupied a good mile or so, with a remote bunker - what do you give a grid refernence for - the middle of the site, the bunker, the edge or what ?
I too have sent in amendments to the DoB site, and various other databases of remains. I've even had acknowledgement that the official description is wrong, but has it ever been corrected - NO !
I feel more inclined to dispense what I know to local people, who are, as rule, are much more appreciative.
Had a look at the Wittering Lane and Delvour Road,but didn't have the OS location as details are on a list to check out on another pc,their are two entrances to a field looking towards the Dee,both have no entrance gate posts,one is a straight run into the field so looks normal and the other appears to have an overgrown sharp right down to the field,the entrance ground is made up of bricks from a building and other parts appears to be a concrete floor,could this have been an air-raid shelter.
The concrete slab that I was looking at has a bit of concrete path from the railway,the thickness is only about 4" in imperial money,suppose it could have been a base for the platelayers shed,spoke to some guy doing paragliding and asked if they could take any photo's Thurstaston and the Starfish site and the guy rang up another lad who does the photo's,I did ask if they did could they publish them on Wikiwirral,maybe low level air photo's of the area will show something for us to investigate.
I thought of a plate layers hut, but it's obviously never had anything built on top (no marks on it anywhere), it's undercut somewhat, about 4 inch thick and looks like MoD concrete. I don't think anything to do with the decoy, we know where the decoy bunker is, and I know the boundary of the decoy site. It looks like the top of something, not a bottom:
That's the same one I am on about,as you say could be mod concrete,they would have had to get the materials they used from somewhere maybe it came in by train and that was a stopping off point,the rear part by the path has started subside along the length of the concrete,so I don't really think it's a roof,I would like to know the route they used to get the materials to site,was the horse track a narrow road and why a bit further up what looks like an old pond and when were the hedges put in etc.
It looks like the hills at Thurstaston common are starting to reveal their secrets. There is concrete starting to show through in several places on the largest one. DD will be down there with his fold away spade like a shot.
After looking at the 1970,s air map of Thurstaston on Cheshire Tithes web,to me it looks as if Thurstaston gun site was a tip,where the Dee Sailing club is and the ground around it was a tip the old maps show the area as clay pits and limekilns,I was hoping that the horse track towards the Dungeons was an old path but the old maps and looking at air map it appears as new,so is it me using rose coloured glasses and missing things,are there any older air maps or OS maps online that can be used.
The Thurstatston station area (as also did other station sites on that line) was also used to store Uranium ore (lots of it) for processing at Capenhurst, I guess in the 50's. It's on one of the Wirral Steam video films.
Having read through this thread once again and there have been some excellent contributions and thank you, unless i have missed it, no one has touched on the ack ack that was static at lairds during WW2, I was told of this by a few old timers when i was an apprentice and enquiring what was the circular sunken track at the end of the slipway for. Can anyone shed any light on this. If i knew how to capture google maps i could put its location up.
Last edited by bert1; 14th Sep 20103:07pm.
God help us, Come yourself, Don't send Jesus, This is no place for children.
Cant do Google maps either but can see this on the end of slipway, bottom right. This is now MOD controlled area due to the construction of new flight decks in hangar. Might have a mooch in the week when in there. (looking buisy!!)
Bert, as well as the metal circle of what looked like the top edge of angle bar set in the concrete, there was a centre steel pedastle. In the mid 50s i also was told there was a gun postitioned there during the war and that the only reason for the extension from the end of the jetty was for the positioning of the gun. At a later date a concrete pots was erected a red warning light put up as a warning to shipping of the concrete projection out into the river.
Ships that pass in the night, seldom seen and soon forgoten
Yes, I have some information about the small copse located on the left hand side of Brimstage Lane (running from Storeton to Brimstage). Now overgrown with pine trees , I used to play in there as a boy (early 1980’s) not as overgrown then or as popular with fly tippers, a concrete road cut through the centre and the outline foundations of brick buildings were clearly seen around the complex.
My late father later told me about the site, apparently it was a gun emplacement with small barracks attached and I think was operated by the US Army.
I was also told that my late uncle (my father’s brother) was temporarily stationed there after returning from Operation Market Garden, Arnhem in September 1944.
He was in the Para Regiment and home was Bebington . It was not uncommon for those that had experienced heavy fighting to spend some time in rehab close to where they lived to help get back into civilian life (I guess it would be diagnosed now as post traumatic stress syndrome). Although he was allowed to spend the days with his mother and father in Bebington he had to spend a few nights in the barracks at Brimstage Lane until he was ready to move back home permanently.
Since both my father and uncle have passed away I’m keen to learn more about the site, when it was demolished, does anyone else know of those stationed there, was it manned by the US?
Wasnt there US troops stationed/billeted at Arrowe park/upton in WW2. There could be a connection! Maybe they wernt permenantly stationed at brimstage site...! Its only down the road realy!
Welcome to wiki, FirbobMark. Have you read the earlier pages in this thread? There are several aerial photographs on page 2 & on page 3 there's quite a lot of info. from the archives. It appears they were still negotiating about demolition as late as 1958. From the photos, there's still evidence there in 1979 but by 1987 it had disappeared. I have no evidence that it was ever manned by U.S. personnel.
When I was at St Georges we used to p;ay "catch a girl, kiss a girl" in a huge concrete complex on New Brighton Prom (where "the Dips" are now). These, I believe, were were a part of the infrastructure for defence guns. They must have been destroyed in the late fifties yet there seems to be very little recollection of them.
it was probably the rocket battery in the dips. the location of the new brighton gunsite is disputed. it was not on the prom. it was either on top or at the base of the cliff by the cliff tower block. i believe it to be on the top.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
The main gun site was on the left hand side of the clown roundabout on what is now part of the park area. South side of Kings Parade. I played there often enough as I child, but never caught any girls! Did get a nasty electric shock though as there were live wires in the concrete buildings.
it was probably the rocket battery in the dips. the location of the new brighton gunsite is disputed. it was not on the prom. it was either on top or at the base of the cliff by the cliff tower block. i believe it to be on the top.
This pic any help? It was taken just after the War in 1947.
In the light of new evidence, DD, I've had a closer look at my photo, and I think you'll find there were actually four gun emplacements, three on the roadway and a fourth in the grass at the top of the dip containing the bowling greens and tennis courts. I found the drawing below at the Archives the other week - it was apparently drawn in the mid-50s when work was being done on reinstating the Prom.
If you look on "Google Maps" you can see marks in the ground that might be the remains of the sites that were in place on what is now parkland. It would have been in the 50's when as a child I played there.
There's another thread going "whats that structure" who are asking about the engineering brick wall behind the gun site, as martyfred99 happliy has found some info on the location of guns does he have any info of the wall behind the guns at the noses.
In the light of new evidence, DD, I've had a closer look at my photo, and I think you'll find there were actually four gun emplacements, three on the roadway and a fourth in the grass at the top of the dip containing the bowling greens and tennis courts. I found the drawing below at the Archives the other week - it was apparently drawn in the mid-50s when work was being done on reinstating the Prom.
Re the drawing, was there a date or any other information it please? Might it have been a "proposed" drawing?
Unfortunately, there's nothing written on the drawing at all, but it seems to be associated with another, more detailed, plan listed in the catalogue dated 1954, concerning the demolition and reinstatement of the gun site. Sadly, that plan seems to have gone AWOL, but the staff have promised to have a good hunt round for it, so hopefully it'll turn up someday...
marty99fred Can I ask where did you get the air picture of the dips from, I've been having a closer look and as well as the army camp huts,there appears lots more on the lhs between the two round abouts and what appears to be barbed wire line, so I'am just wondering if theres a higher resolution air photo around.
marty99fred Can I ask where did you get the air picture of the dips from, I've been having a closer look and as well as the army camp huts,there appears lots more on the lhs between the two round abouts and what appears to be barbed wire line, so I'am just wondering if theres a higher resolution air photo around.
Sorry for the delay in answering, but I've been trying to get hold of the original reference for the photo. It's actually from a sequence of aerial photos taken in 1946 by Aerofilms Ltd and the ref. no. is A1794/46. The Aerofilms Archive is now in the hands of English Heritage, and copies of the photos can be obtained through their website. The bit I posted is an enlargement of a very small section of a shot covering most of New Brighton seafront, so I don't think they'd actually be able to supply a copy with much better resolution, even using the original negative. There were probably other shots in the sequence showing the Dips in much greater detail, but unfortunately they're not amongst the copies I have, so I can't give you any reference numbers for them.
Don't know if I've posted this before but a friend of mine lived in New Brighton in the 1950s and as a lad he said in that area was a round built hole with spiral stairs going down round the inside walls with rooms going off it - he thought it may have been used for storing shells for the guns maybe.Said he'd been down them.
My Mum told me there was a gun battery on the Shore Fields in New Ferry- dont know when that was moved though
The gun battery at Shorefields was manned by Poles. There were a series of barrack huts erected to billet them in. The guns were removed in late 1944/early 1945 when the danger of Luftwaffe bombers reaching Merseyside had long since passed. The barracks were then used as a POW camp housing German and Italian prisoners. There was no barbed wire around them - it was an "open" prison where the inmates were allowed out to work on local farms during the daytime. Some of them even dated local New Ferry girls - as one elderly lady who lived in Pollitt Square at the time told me last year when I was exhibiting my Luftwaffe bomber pilot collection at Fort Perch Rock Museum (which I will be doing again this coming Easter Monday!).... her sister went out with one of them on a date, and her mother always said for a foriegner he was one of the "politest dates" any of her daughters had gone out with!
From 1948 the barracks were used as temporary housing for people who had lost their homes in the bombing on Merseyside. The buildings were empty in the early 1970s and finally demolished. Some of the trees that survive opposite Pollitt Square, on Shorefields, originally were planted in the "gardens" around the huts when people lived in them.
You can find out more about New Ferry and its wartime history on my website www.newferryonline.org.uk Look in the History section, and at the Photos & Memories page, particularly the 1940s page.
Here is an Ordnance Survey map extract from 1954, although I have added the position of the gun. You can clearly see the barracks on the field opposite Pollitt Square.
The map came from the excellent website www.old-maps.co.uk Just input your postcode and see all the various maps from different times available for this area!!
could someone link me the images of the Holm Lane (if any exist) and the Storeton Gunsite, please? All the links provided seem to have expired, or that I simply cannot view them.
The bases and drains of the Storeton Gunsite buildings are still present and worth a visit if you have an interest.
As far as I remember there are only aerials of Holme Lane and Storeton.
The only Wirral sites with the remains of gun emplacements are Bidston and Puddington. Puddington is dangerous to enter without permission but is by far in the best condition albeit very overgrown.
Storeton and Bidston are accessible.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
The Holme lane site received a direct hit from a German bomb and several crew members both male and female were killed.I believe they where buried in Landigan .
Firstly, thanks for the information. I'll be checking out the Storeton battery as soon as I can.
As far as I know, the Bidston Site is being demolished, as the area is blocked off and controlled fires are clearing away the shrubbery. Not sure about this though.
I'd like to try and find the Storeton gunsite. Could any give me an idea of where it is please? All images have expired on the thread but from what I can gather it's on Red Hill Road.
I'd like to try and find the Storeton gunsite. Could any give me an idea of where it is please? All images have expired on the thread but from what I can gather it's on Red Hill Road.
I'd like to try and find the Storeton gunsite. Could any give me an idea of where it is please? All images have expired on the thread but from what I can gather it's on Red Hill Road.
Thanks
It was not a actual gunsite but a 'Starfish Decoy System' base where they started fires in fields to make the Germans drop their bombs. There was a gunsite near Lever's Causeway.
The McKenna field in Gorsey Lane, Wallasey had lots of stuff left in the 1960s. Gun bases and air raid shelters and other underground buildings. All was swept away when the Tunnel Roads were built.Possibly bits remain for future searchers well below ground. We used to play in them.
Interesting read that Chris. There was a lot of concrete by Bidston station that they used to keep horses in and I figured it was some kind of gun site from the way it was formed. I have some recollection of being told that people in the shelters under Bidston hill could hear it being fired off in the raids. Perhaps I read about it?
Does anyone remember the anti aircraft gun they had on fort perch rock? Used to climb on and "train" it. The Artillery guys from the fort used to go into my dads aunties little cafe in Balmoral road and when the Sergeant came looking for them, she would let them escape out the back door.
I may have the location wrong but my father once told me they had dummy sites around Bidston where they lit fires to mislead the Germans into dropping their bombs on waste land. That seems a bit close to the docks and built up areas for my liking even if there wasn't as much there as now?
They had rockets on the site in the sandhills. I can remember going to that place in the fifties (sixties?) and the public toilets were old army one's. I don't think anyone ever claimed to have knocked out any German planes with rockets but must have scared them a bit all the same!
The noise tale makes sense. My Dad who landed on D Day and fought through to near Magdeburg said he'd never heard anything louder than the AA gun at Leasowe. He was in the Home Guard before he was called up.
I think the Bidston train station area was possibly an underground defensive position, it was recently cleared and you can see more of the structures now but what did intrigue me most was an ordnance survey map that I've attach a screenshot of. It clearly shows 2 air shafts to the right side of the surface structures.
There was a decoy site on Bidston moss. I and some mates used to go there to pester the german P.O.Ws who were being used to fill in the bomb craters at the end of the war.. We found that if we bought 5 Woodbines which were the cheapest cigs at the time we could for swop one fag for a german badge.
Any info on the old gun site of brimstage Lane?? Been trying to finger it out but carnt find anythink
None of the gunsite is left but in the trees the concrete bases and chimney stacks of the camp huts and some of the drain and electricity conduits are left. Well worth a wander.
There are pictures on this forum somewhere as well as information about the gun positions in the immediate field to the north-west and radar mat across the road. I'll hunt them out if you can't find them.
We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn
Diggingdeeper thank you for reply am still very new to this site so ime unable to figure out how to reply directly to you I have been up there with my autistic son who loves anythink army is there any more on the wirral
The Bidston Gunsite still has the gun placements/holdowns and some remains of the ammunition lockers, one has recently been destroyed but the other may remain, I haven't checked.. Its a bit awkward to get to.
I think that is it for accessible gunsites on the Wirral.
The Puddington gunsite is very well preserved but very heavily overgrown and you MUST ask permission to access it do to the nature of the business that owns the site, if they agree for you to visit you have to sign a disclaimer that basically says if you die even if it is due to their business they are not liable.
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