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#227553 - 16th May 2008 1:28pm Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours!
MattLFC Offline
Wiki Master

Registered: 14th Aug 2004
Posts: 22315
Loc: Moreton/Beirut/Mobile
Originally Posted By: BBC News
More than 300 people wanted by police in Merseyside have been arrested over the space of 24 hours.

About 200 officers were involved in the operation to take 303 wanted men and women into custody under Merseyside Police's "total policing initiative".

Arrests were made for offences such as robbery, assault, burglary, and the supply of controlled drugs.

Officers seized 1kg of what is thought to be amphetamine during raids, along with 10 vehicles.

Nice one thumbsup

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#227572 - 16th May 2008 5:17pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: MattLFC]
Brian Offline
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Registered: 17th Mar 2008
Posts: 42
Loc: DownEast Maine, USA. Ex-Moreto...
The thing which would scare me is the second part of the next paragraph below the bit you quoted.

"Police launched raids at suspects' homes and also used automatic number plate recognition technology to spot vehicles associated with people wanted on warrant."

Now, maybe I'm paranoid because I've spent the last 20 years writing databases for a living, and of course I'm safe from it all now unless I come back to the UK, but **I can not understand** how the UK can be sliding down the road to a fully-monitored police state so quickly, and yet with so few protests (that I read about in the British media).

Of course, some may think you're already past the point of no return, and so there's nothing more that can be done about it. I can understand that point of view, even if I don't agree with it.

Depresses the hell out of me, anyway. If I hadn't already done so due to my American wife, I'd be doing my best to emigrate right around now.


Brian.

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#227575 - 16th May 2008 5:27pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: Brian]
MattLFC Offline
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Registered: 14th Aug 2004
Posts: 22315
Loc: Moreton/Beirut/Mobile
Whats wrong with the using current ANPR system and face-recognition technologies that are currently being deployed in major cities, to monitor, target and catch criminals??

They have had ANPR in the village where my dad lives since it first came about, as he lives right next to the SAS headquarters; any vehicle that isnt local gets flagged up, and monitored until it leaves the village.

The beauty of that system is, the biggest crime they have had in the past few years, was some youths braking a fence - but they were caught on SAS cctv and the SAS Police caught them in a few minutes, and they were referred to West Mercia Police and dealt with accordingly (cautions iirc).

All it is doing, is preventing crime, prevention is better than cure imho, it doesnt only prevent crime, but it also acts as a deterrent.

I was listening to Radio Merseyside the other day, and they were discussing local policing, and some startling statistics were being talked about, since ANPR came into force, 350,000+ new applications for car insurance had been processed, as well as taxi drivers noting cuts of the rate of accidents involvoing un-insured drives in their area's had dropped from the likes of 8 per year to just 1.

The innocent and decent citizens have nothing to fear from these systems, but a hell of a lot to gain. With Anti-social behaviour, drugs, gun and knife crime and terrorism on the increase, these measures ARE needed and they DO make the streets a whole lot safer.

Id rather the government spend their money on this stuff, rather than bailing out the private and profitable banks to the tune of 100billion+.

If someone has a warrant out for their arrest, explain to me what is wrong with the police making use of ANPR to catch the scum? If someone robbed my car, explain to me what is wrong with the police making use of ANPR to recover it for me, and maybe even catch the scum who robbed it?

smile

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#227577 - 16th May 2008 5:43pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours [Re: MattLFC]
Brian Offline
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Registered: 17th Mar 2008
Posts: 42
Loc: DownEast Maine, USA. Ex-Moreto...
Originally Posted By: MattLFC
Whats wrong with the using current ANPR system and face-recognition technologies that are currently being deployed in major cities, to monitor, target and catch criminals??



It's not the current use to catch criminals that worries me, it's the potential for future *misuse* of the data that's being gathered on the law-abiding majority in order to catch the criminal minority.

There have been enough examples in recent months of government incompetence in protecting data that I don't need to list them here.

As with any new development, you weigh up the pros and cons. A plus point for these systems, as you rightly point out, is their use in catching criminals. A negative point is their implications for privacy and civil liberties. You weigh up the pros and cons, and you decide whether you're in favour of the technology or not. You and I obviously disagree with regard to these systems. That **doesn't** mean that I'm not in favour of catching criminals.


Brian.


Edited by Brian (16th May 2008 5:44pm)
Edit Reason: brain/hand disconnect

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#227578 - 16th May 2008 5:47pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: Brian]
MattLFC Offline
Wiki Master

Registered: 14th Aug 2004
Posts: 22315
Loc: Moreton/Beirut/Mobile
The government has far too much data on us already, there is very little in the way of privacy. Another system wont actually make any difference. As you say, most peoples personal data has already been lost thanks to all the crap that went on last year.

FYI, every single persons car details are already available to just about anyone from the DVLA for 2.50 a pop if you claim to be a debt collector etc... which imho, is a far more serious issue than ANPR and similar systems being used to catch criminals.

If you privacy warriors had you're own way, we wouldn't have any sort of databases, no sex offenders register, no criminal records bearau, no vat or company records, no employment records etc, because they are all a risk to a persons privacy and open to misuse; in other words, we would all be living in the dark ages.

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#227590 - 16th May 2008 6:30pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: MattLFC]
Davey_Martin Offline
Forum Master

Registered: 17th Jul 2007
Posts: 2888
Loc: New Ferry
not often i say this but i'm with matty on this one lol

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#227604 - 16th May 2008 8:03pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: MattLFC]
Brian Offline
Newbeee

Registered: 17th Mar 2008
Posts: 42
Loc: DownEast Maine, USA. Ex-Moreto...
Originally Posted By: MattLFC
The government has far too much data on us already, there is very little in the way of privacy. Another system wont actually make any difference. As you say, most peoples personal data has already been lost thanks to all the crap that went on last year.

FYI, every single persons car details are already available to just about anyone from the DVLA for 2.50 a pop if you claim to be a debt collector etc... which imho, is a far more serious issue than ANPR and similar systems being used to catch criminals.


On that last point, we're in partial agreement. Do I think anyone should be able to access those DVLA details as easily as you say? No. Do I have any problems with these other systems "being used to catch criminals"? No. The problem I have is with the data which is collected on everyone, indiscriminately, as part of "catching criminals".

The UK is getting far too keen about hanging on to data. Look at the DNA database, for example. Putting criminals on to it is one thing, but people who aren't convicted should be able to have their records removed - and the suggestion that I read that this can't be done is absolute bull.

Originally Posted By: MattLFC

If you privacy warriors had you're own way, we wouldn't have any sort of databases, no sex offenders register, no criminal records bearau, no vat or company records, no employment records etc, because they are all a risk to a persons privacy and open to misuse; in other words, we would all be living in the dark ages.


OK, demolition of straw men time...

no sex offenders register,

The sex offenders register, AFAIK, holds details of convicted sex offenders. No problem at all with that. They committed an offence to get themselves on there.


no criminal records bearau,

By definition, the criminal records bureau holds records of convicted criminals, or those who weren't convicted but the charge was ordered to remain on the file (essentially not an acquittal). Again, I have no problem with that. They committed an offence to get themselves on there.


no vat or company records, no employment records etc

If you look at what I said before, I think I was fairly clear about making a decision on each database on its merits. Some data *has* to be held for society to function, whether it be on paper or magnetic or optical storage. But all right, let me give it one more try. Tell me when you disagree...

1) Anyone who says *all* databases are a *good* thing is wrong.

2) Anyone who says *all* databases are a *bad* thing is wrong.

3) For any new database, you need to weigh up the benefits from having that database against the downside of same, which can include privacy concerns, problems caused by data abuse or loss, problems caused by corrupted data, and so on.

All OK so far? Well, in that case, the difference of opinion we have is which side of the line something which is effectively a movements database for motorists falls. To you, it's a positive because of the benefits in catching criminals. To me, the civil liberties considerations outweigh those benefits.

Again, once you have the database, the police may as well use the collected data. You've got the (IMO) downside, you may as well have the benefits. What frightens me is the extent to which the UK seems to have gone down the road to a surveillance society, without any effective protest (judging protest by my reading of various British News websites).

I actually have less problem with the DVLA route to finding out a driver's details than I do with a system which is monitoring everyone indiscriminately. THAT'S what I'm arguing against - the routine collection of records on people who have committed no offence. IMO, the benefits from these ANPR systems don't outweigh the cost to civil liberties and the potential for abuse.


Brian.




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#227615 - 16th May 2008 8:47pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: Brian]
MattLFC Offline
Wiki Master

Registered: 14th Aug 2004
Posts: 22315
Loc: Moreton/Beirut/Mobile
Originally Posted By: Brian
The UK is getting far too keen about hanging on to data. Look at the DNA database, for example. Putting criminals on to it is one thing, but people who aren't convicted should be able to have their records removed - and the suggestion that I read that this can't be done is absolute bull.

Im all for a mass DNA database to made available to the police and prosecution service; Again, it "may" be open to abuse, although it would be hard to actually find a way to abuse it. However, there are so many cases, where the police have DNA evidence to relate to the crime, but no match on the database.

Only a few weeks ago on ITV Nightwatch, it showed the story of how a man raped multiple women in the late 80's and early 90's, and was never found. The police had DNA evidence on him, but were never able to match it against the database. Then he was arrested last year for something stupid, and they took his DNA. The DNA was matched to the man wanted for the rapes and he was quickly arrested and charged for some of the rapes. 20 years on, he had become a respectable businessman, with a family, and he was now in his 40's, yet thanks to DNA, his dark History was finally uncovered.

If someone committed a serious crime against someone I know, and the police had vital DNA evidence, but no match on the database, I would be campaigning for them to start compiling a database of everyones DNA.

As I always say, if we have nothing to hide, we have nothing to fear.

Quote:
1) Anyone who says *all* databases are a *good* thing is wrong.

I agree.

Quote:
2) Anyone who says *all* databases are a *bad* thing is wrong.

I agree

Quote:
3) For any new database, you need to weigh up the benefits from having that database against the downside of same, which can include privacy concerns, problems caused by data abuse or loss, problems caused by corrupted data, and so on.

I agree as well; but a database that helps cut crime is, imho, a good reason to have/make use of one. The fact that ANPR has assisted the police to removed 300+ criminals off the streets of Merseyside in just 24 hours, demonstrates to me, that use of databases for fighting crime, is far more important than the slight (albeit very real) risk of misuse and abuse of that database.

Quote:
Again, once you have the database, the police may as well use the collected data. You've got the (IMO) downside, you may as well have the benefits. What frightens me is the extent to which the UK seems to have gone down the road to a surveillance society, without any effective protest (judging protest by my reading of various British news websites).

Yes, it does frighten most people; but not half as much as the scum who commit crimes of all kinds, frighten people. Id rather be watched by cctv for instance, than feel completely alone on a night out in a big city with allsorts of opportunities then presented to criminals. cctv does act as both a deterrent and crime solving tool, there is no getting away from that fact. Some crimes can never be deterred or caught by cctv, but these are few and far between when there is a cctv camera present.

Quote:
I actually have less problem with the DVLA route to finding out a driver's details than I do with a system which is monitoring everyone indiscriminately.

Huh? So you feel any organisation, who by law you have to give you're details to, should be able to sell them details on to any 3rd party that wants them, so long as it is making money, but you have less support for a crime fighting database such as a national DNA database?? omg

Quote:
THAT'S what I'm arguing against - the routine collection of records on people who have committed no offence. IMO, the benefits from these ANPR systems don't outweigh the cost to civil liberties and the potential for abuse.

I understand what you are trying to say here, but honestly, crime is becoming so rife and the crimes themselves are becoming so bad in the US, that we are now having to resort to these measures... partly because we are part of the shitty EU and criminals have more rights than anyone in the EU and partly because our prison service are at breaking point and criminals do not fear the overstretched police forces.

Anything that helps to fight crime, im all for. Any other type of database, I have to think long and hard before I can make a decision on whether I like it or not. Crime is a MASSIVE issue in the UK right now, and the ANPR system is contantly proving its worth to the people affected by crime, and whilst it does that, I don't see how anyone can argue with its use.

There are other databases of course, which should be argued with, other databases which should be more locked down and less suceptible to abuse, but yesterday, 300 criminals were taken off the streets as a bonus of using the database and that is a good thing. 250+ of them will probably be back on the streets today, thanks to our entire justice system being stretched to the limit and the government enforcing stupid rules on the CPS, but that is another story altogether!!

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#227724 - 16th May 2008 10:36pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: MattLFC]
Brian Offline
Newbeee

Registered: 17th Mar 2008
Posts: 42
Loc: DownEast Maine, USA. Ex-Moreto...
Originally Posted By: MattLFC
Originally Posted By: Brian
The UK is getting far too keen about hanging on to data. Look at the DNA database, for example. Putting criminals on to it is one thing, but people who aren't convicted should be able to have their records removed - and the suggestion that I read that this can't be done is absolute bull.

Im all for a mass DNA database to made available to the police and prosecution service; Again, it "may" be open to abuse, although it would be hard to actually find a way to abuse it.


You don't think the insurance companies would like to review the DNA of the people whom they insure, to check for any susceptibility to disease, for example? How do you fancy becoming all but uninsureable due to a genetic defect?

Originally Posted By: MattLFC

However, there are so many cases, where the police have DNA evidence to relate to the crime, but no match on the database.


Again, I can see the benefits, but I don't think they outweigh the negatives.

Originally Posted By: MattLFC

Only a few weeks ago on ITV Nightwatch, it showed the story of how a man raped multiple women in the late 80's and early 90's, and was never found. The police had DNA evidence on him, but were never able to match it against the database. Then he was arrested last year for something stupid, and they took his DNA. The DNA was matched to the man wanted for the rapes and he was quickly arrested and charged for some of the rapes. 20 years on, he had become a respectable businessman, with a family, and he was now in his 40's, yet thanks to DNA, his dark History was finally uncovered.


Right. And if DNA testing becomes the holy grail of all evidence, just plug in the DNA and it tells you who to arrest, how do you protect against the faulty evidence? Either a corrupted database (believe me, it happens!) or worse yet, a corrupted database operator or scientist. Do you remember the story of a man called Stefan Kiszko?

Originally Posted By: MattLFC

If someone committed a serious crime against someone I know, and the police had vital DNA evidence, but no match on the database, I would be campaigning for them to start compiling a database of everyones DNA.


And were I in those circumstances, I would hope that I was still able to see the wider picture, and so would NOT do so, just because it happened to someone I know. And if it were me on the receiving end, I *definitely* wouldn't want it to happen. Go down in History as the person (indirectly) responsible for the first national DNA database? No, thanks all the same.


Originally Posted By: MattLFC

As I always say, if we have nothing to hide, we have nothing to fear.


And as I always say when someone parrots that old line, I admire your optimism. I only wish I could share it. I fear a lot of things when it comes to "infallible" databases, but then I've spent half a working lifetime seeing the sort of garbage that infests databases.


Originally Posted By: MattLFC

The fact that ANPR has assisted the police to removed 300+ criminals off the streets of Merseyside in just 24 hours, demonstrates to me, that use of databases for fighting crime, is far more important than the slight (albeit very real) risk of misuse and abuse of that database.


But remember, that ANPR database wasn't solely responsible for removing the 300 criminals. How many were arrested by simply knocking on their doors, for example?

Originally Posted By: MattLFC

Yes, it does frighten most people; but not half as much as the scum who commit crimes of all kinds, frighten people. Id rather be watched by cctv for instance, than feel completely alone on a night out in a big city with allsorts of opportunities then presented to criminals. cctv does act as both a deterrent and crime solving tool, there is no getting away from that fact. Some crimes can never be deterred or caught by cctv, but these are few and far between when there is a cctv camera present.


cctv is a somewhat different argument, unless you have any evidence to suggest that the data from cctv is all being stored long-term or permanently.


Originally Posted By: MattLFC

Huh? So you feel any organisation, who by law you have to give you're details to, should be able to sell them details on to any 3rd party that wants them, so long as it is making money, but you have less support for a crime fighting database such as a national DNA database?? omg


No, and I didn't say that. Come on, Matt, you're not that stupid. Comparing two evils doesn't mean that I'm automatically in favour of the lesser one. The DVLA selling on details should be illegal. Is that clear enough for you? It's precisely because I think that almost any organisation will, sooner or later, find a means to sell on such databases **that I'm against the data being collected in the first place**, unless there's an overriding public need for it - and I don't believe that's the case for a national DNA database.

Originally Posted By: MattLFC

I understand what you are trying to say here, but honestly, crime is becoming so rife and the crimes themselves are becoming so bad in the US, that we are now having to resort to these measures... partly because we are part of the shitty EU and criminals have more rights than anyone in the EU and partly because our prison service are at breaking point and criminals do not fear the overstretched police forces.


But if the databases are as effective in solving crimes as you suggest, surely that's going to push the UK's prisons *past* breaking point? I'm just puzzled here, I don't understand your logic.


Originally Posted By: MattLFC

Anything that helps to fight crime, im all for.


OK, that's your view. I'm not willing to give law enforcement quite such a blank cheque as you are - especially not with the amount of their work that seems to be outsourced these days. How long do you think it would take before dossers like Group4 got access to the various databases - just for purely administrative reasons, you understand, so they could find out what category of prisoners they were transporting?


Originally Posted By: MattLFC

Any other type of database, I have to think long and hard before I can make a decision on whether I like it or not. Crime is a MASSIVE issue in the UK right now, and the ANPR system is contantly proving its worth to the people affected by crime, and whilst it does that, I don't see how anyone can argue with its use.


Well, I'd argue with it, but I don't pretend to speak for anyone other than myself. Why am I interested in what goes on in the UK? Simple - maybe one day, if the house prices regain some degree of reality, we might like to come back. The only reason I'm in the USA is that the UK wouldn't let my wife (an only child) bring her physically-dependent mother with her had she been the one to emigrate.


Originally Posted By: MattLFC

There are other databases of course, which should be argued with, other databases which should be more locked down and less suceptible to abuse, but yesterday, 300 criminals were taken off the streets as a bonus of using the database and that is a good thing. 250+ of them will probably be back on the streets today, thanks to our entire justice system being stretched to the limit and the government enforcing stupid rules on the CPS, but that is another story altogether!!


Then if the results are such (and I take your word for it), I'm even more convinced that the negatives outweigh the benefits.


Brian.


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#227810 - 17th May 2008 4:41pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: Brian]
Beemertastic Offline
Forum Addict

Registered: 16th Oct 2007
Posts: 1113
Loc: wirral
ok boys ...enough bout ANPR...heres the truth..the Police do collect a HUGE amount of information..and what happens to it al..nowt..does it get used properly..yup.
ANPR isnt the catch all that bosses make out to be..same as cctv...its a useful tool..but it doesnt get away from having a mark one eyeball on the ground...
All the hype is as much to do with political spin as it is anything else..ANPR is mindnumbingly expensive...each car setup is in the region of 30-35k...yes!...let alone the static cameras all over the place...so that money has to be justified..hence the spin..
TBH half the time the system misreads or its too far out of date...I know...i use it on a pretty much daily basis at work.
I actually get better results using my "spidey sense" if you want the truth...and without bragging im not bad at taking cars off shite who cant be arsed getting a driving licence, or paying for their insurance...and i take great pleasure in doing so...
So brian..relax and stop being quite so paranoid..its not all bad...just remember im watching you!
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#227822 - 17th May 2008 4:55pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: Beemertastic]
rentaclown100 Offline

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Registered: 19th Apr 2008
Posts: 1235
Loc: wallasey
i think its all good cos if you dont do anything wrong then why worry about who has your dna or anything?
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#227825 - 17th May 2008 5:05pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: rentaclown100]
_Ste_ Offline


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Registered: 7th Aug 2005
Posts: 15985
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withthat
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#227846 - 17th May 2008 5:32pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: Beemertastic]
Davey_Martin Offline
Forum Master

Registered: 17th Jul 2007
Posts: 2888
Loc: New Ferry
Originally Posted By: Auditastic
So brian..relax and stop being quite so paranoid..its not all bad...just remember im watching you!



LOL

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#227859 - 17th May 2008 6:33pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: Davey_Martin]
Beemertastic Offline
Forum Addict

Registered: 16th Oct 2007
Posts: 1113
Loc: wirral
your not paranoid..if they really are out to get you!
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#227889 - 17th May 2008 9:22pm Re: Police Arrest More Than 300 People In 24 Hours! [Re: Beemertastic]
Mark Online   Reading


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Registered: 9th Nov 2003
Posts: 20958
Loc: Wirral
Some very good points raised by matt, Brian and Auditastic.

If the database is good or bad, large or small, my opinion is
that some bugger will still loose it in the post mad

I find the problem with all this data flying around the
high risk of cloning. By that i mean i could find myself
in a whole lot of trouble proving who i am.

And if any of these databases involve human input,
then were all on a slippy road.

Personally i think the majority goes along with them partly
because they dont understand or realise how much information
is held about us on databases here and there.

Its when you know what these databases can hold about you
or your friends or family you hope and pray the info is correct,
watch dog only showed last week how there were people who had
criminal checks done against them only to find they had convictions against them they had never committed.

They have been corrected now, but they all wondered how
many jobs or opportunities had been lost due to these mistakes.

I am in favour for the grater good, until it effects Mr and Mrs Good in a negative way, then questions and solutions must be found.

I'm not sure if The UK is the guinne pig with all this?
And were heading for a fall.

My thoughts anyway.
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