Forums Forums National News Gaza

Why are virtually all politicians in power supporting the annihilation of Gaza?

I thought they were supporting the annihilation of Hamas.

They are supporting what is happening and what is happening is the annihilation of Gaza. There is a limit to what can be called collateral damage especially when the objective has been stated to flatten a primarily residential territory.

In Gaza there has been 28,500 residential units destroyed and 183,000 damaged, over 3,000 children and 2,000 women killed, it is not the military that is being targeted.

This is yet another land grab in Palestine, how come Palestine isn't allowed to defend itself?

Hardly any mention is made of the 1200 Palestinians being held hostage by Israel from before the current events.

I fail to see the difference between Palestine and Ukraine, both have a history of land repeatedly being taken away from them, it has been non-stop in Palestine for many years, the West Bank has been broken up and dominated, its now Gaza's turn.

If Israel wasn't continually stealing/occupying more and more Palestinian land, would Hamas exist in Palestine?

Israel has the right to defend herself and Hamas would exist because their only aim is to rid the Jews from that area.
Hamas have chosen the battleground, should Israel not retaliate because Hamas hide behind the civilian population, it doesn't seem to bother Hamas hitting civilian areas with all they have.
It seems to me supporters of Palestine have no problem with Israel being attacked and yet when the favour is returned there's outcry. I have no dog in the fight but you don't need much sense to know what Israel's response was going to be if attacked at the scale it was.

Far from it, Israel have carried out far more raids than Hamas but there is hardly a whisper about that. There used to be frequent reports when Israel did a land grab and forcibly evicted Palestinians from their homes, the land garbs didn't stop, they just stopped getting reported (look at the map of the West Bank above). The media and senior politicians are making out that everything was calm and peaceful until October, completely losing the history of the thousands of Israeli raids every year and the evictions, arrests, abductions, poverty and deaths in Palestine and of course the Hamas rockets. Not forgetting Israel is one of the major military powers in the world and Palestine is at the opposite end of the table.

The October raid by Hamas is similar to the attack by by Israel a few years ago when 1200 Palestinians died.

Palestine and Hamas have no navy, no airforce and no armoured vehicles, Israel has a capability similar to the UK but it has more military personnel, far more land based equipment than us and maybe more technologically advanced as well.

It is Palestine that is being attacked, not Hamas.

Hamas got involved in Gaza in 2006/7, AFTER Israel blockaded Gaza creating huge economic hardship to the Palestinians in Gaza for the last 16 years . You can't blockade a territory and expect no retaliation. Note, I am talking about the blockade, not the barrier, they are not the same thing, a blockade is a siege.

Israel count both Gaza and the West Bank as part of Israel and do not acknowledge any state of Palestine. Hence Israel claims the split between Arabs and Jews is roughly 50/50, in reality Israel (1967 border) is almost entirely Jewish and Palestine is about 25-30% Jewish. Israel is one of the most racist countries in the world, they even enshrined laws in 2018 specifically giving Jewish supremacy - “Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish people and they have an exclusive right to national self-determination in it” - not forgetting that Israel counts the whole of Palestine as Israel.

Since 2017, Israel has been funding Hamas (again), undermining attempts by the Palestinian Authority to limit Hamas's finances. The Palestinian Authority stopped funding Hamas yet Israel immediately replaced those regular payments. The Palestinian Authority were pushed out of Gaza by the Israeli blockade in 2005.

My last post on the subject other than I will eat humble pie if anything I have stated is substantially incorrect.

My overall opinion is that I'm somewhat confused, the history is hugely complicated, I only know a few small snapshots triggered from various sources during my lifetime. Hamas is similar to the Taliban. Both sides are in the position of having to choose between a white flag or shooting from the hip, sometimes strategies are chosen not because of the best possible outcome but because of the most certain outcome in an effort to mitigate the possibility of losing a gamble. It is up to the rest of the world to sanction both countries/states to the hilt and put pressure on them both. The USA will have to intervene soon, a middle east escalation would be a massive threat to the dollar, losing the biggest weapon the USA has in its arsenal, money.

Confused you should be because the most brilliant historians of the region have divided opinions. Dealing with the here and now what on earth were Hamas thinking they could achieve against a powerful war machine Israel have. With the inbred hatred between the two participants, it's just going to be, same old, same old for the very foreseeable future, perhaps forever.

Who struck the first blow. If somebody strikes me I would swiftly strike back,

In my opinion Israel 'started it' with its treatment of its Arab citizens as second class citizens, and its continued land grabbing.

It is no surprise this caused a series of revolts, and as they have got worse Israel has foolishly attempted to repress it with disproportionate violence which has caused even more violent revolts. The current one is the culmination of this and judging by their even more extreme overreaction the next one will be even worse. Eventually it will go nuclear and then its game over for Israel and Gaza.

The idea of destroying Hamas is both impossible and futile. Even if every Hamas member were to suddenly disappear, it would immediately be replaced by a similar and probably even more desperate organisation with the same aims.

I don't know how Israel can stop this. I'd say give full citizens rights to the non-Jewish citizens by law, and enforce it, but it's probably gone far beyond that now. Mindless retribution seems to be the order of the day, and I do not believe the UK should support that.

Well, the death figures continue to rise, we have no kowledge of how many children ad babies are crushed under the rubble, where tanks roll arcoss, crunching their tiny bones. How many cried for their mummy's and got no answer, how many lay for days in shock and pain.

I am furious, with USA/UK and now they are beginning to roll back a bit, after UK initially abstained from a humanitarian pause, USA voted against, both due to the wording of the King of Jordans script not being , in their opinions , suitable ,because it didn't include mention of the Hamas attack !!

Netanyahu has a lot to answer for, he and his Zionist Government, and we all know where the ideology of Zionism began.

Even Netanyahu in one of his speeches on this quoted the bible in Hebrew. Referring to gods command on the Amalaekites , who were inhabitants and tribes of the ancient land of Palestine, 3000 yrs ago and before the Israelites arrived into Canaan . History is very important to Zionists, and so it should be to us also.

What Netanyahu quoted just a few weeks ago and in Hebrew, so many may not have known what he said : I think the modern day term is Genocide !

1 Samuel 15:1-9

" Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”


This is where the trouble began last century, within the Palestinian Christian communities , if anyone is interested enough to follow the process of expulsion after 1947. Palestine was the first Christian territory .
DIsgraceful, and the process continnues. Don;t bother with the first couple of minutes as it will not appeal, but the story of tragedy begins straight after.

A few more straight facts.

The UN has consistently issued more resolutions against Israel than all other countries combined. Most of the resolutions were about the treatment of Palestinians by Israel.

Total since 2015:- Israel=140, Rest-of-World=68

In 2022:- Israel=15, Rest-of World=13 (of which 6 were against Russia)



As far as deaths and injuries go (this should update with time, if not refresh your browser)....

Over 23,000 Palestinian deaths now, mostly women and children - utterly shocking. You're right gran - it's genocide and South Africa are completely right to take it to The Hague. Absolutely appalling loss of life - by an extreme right-wing government whose leader is desperate to get re-elected, after very low poll ratings before the Hamas attacks.

In Gaza more than half of all residential buildings have been damaged or destroyed.

The other half will follow if Hamas don't lay down their arms and remove themselves from the field of conflict. If Israel pull back now the whole cycle of Hamas rockets and attacks upon civilians will start again.

The cycle has started, it can't be stopped. Even if Israel flatten the whole of Gaza there will be decades of terrorist attacks against Israel, Hamas is not based in Gaza. This will give Israel the excuse to attack other Arab nations escalating the impact of the expansion of Israel.

Have you noticed that the US funds anything and everything that results in the deaths of Arabs? This is not the way to achieve peace.

They fund anything that's in their interest, no different to China, Russia, Iran and many others.

This is not 'conflict' between Israel and the population of Gaza, the Gazans and Palestinians are not fighting back.... they can't.

Absolutely diabolicle, and according to Netanyahu in the last 24hrs, it will not stop. He has no chance of stopping Hamas, and looks like even less chance of the captives being returned.

Now we have attacks on Houthis. Saudi Arabia has been fighting the Houthis for the last ten years, and still haven't achieved anything. Houthis are tribes, and tribes have an inbuilt ability for survival .UK should keep it's nose out.
Very odd how every leader of UK Government since at least the year 2000, has one way or another has managed to get involved in a war . It all goes towards their 'street cred' IMO.

Knock out one Houthi and two take their place. Knock out Hamas fighters and for every woman and child are killed in Gazza, it's said that 10 join Hamas. What have the Palestinians left to do.. with no home, no children, no wife ?

Israel building up troops on the Lebanese border, along with field hospitals.. so they are expecting the worst, or ready to trigger the worst. I suspect the latter.

Will the ICJ come to a conclusion of Genocide...? I doubt it, as it's more than their worth to favour against the Zionist Government of Israel and the US mandate.
The judges and Court are on trial themselves.

No doubt, Israel have used this as an excuse to instigate wider conflicts in the region, which they've been after, backed by USA for the last 20 yrs at least. WHo gave the false information about Iraq having WMD ? Netanyahu and there's a video of him shouting it out in US congress.
Iraq didn't turn out too well did it ? Considering they got rid of the supposed trouble maker of WMD (Saddam HUssain) of which David Kelly denied ,.... but look what happened to him ! Another mystery !!!
The Iraqi terrorists groups are constantly attacking US bases on the Iraqi/Syrian border.

I'm steaming with a) anger and b) desperation for the innocents !!

Andrew Feinstein, a Jew who is going to stand as MP against Kier Starmer

That should set the cat amongst the pigeons.

Starmer has released a statement :

"Labour has positioned itself as the pro-genocide party," Feinstein told MEE. "It is completely indistinguishable from the Conservatives and the US administration."

Shortly after the announcement of Feinstein’s candidacy, Starmer issued a statement on X warning of the “catastrophic” consequences of an Israeli offensive on Rafah and calling for a “sustainable ceasefire”.

In response, Feinstein tweeted, “How about calling for an end to arms sales from the UK to Israel? Why haven’t you commented on the findings of the ICJ which ruled that it is plausible Israel is committing genocide? Why have u done nothing to try & stop the slaughter of almost 30,000 people since October?”

Is it any surprise that people are rallying and protesting over the Palestinian and Gazan catastrophe ?

Israeli Masacre last night, against people waiting for food aid. 107 dead, and about 700 injured.

Sniper fire.

Biden has changed his time plan after saying there might be a ceasefire on Monday, now he said there won't be.

What is the world waiting for ???

Your wee Scottish friend with the hat will be making some noise about it in parliament and elsewhere unlike many other spineless politicians.

Russia attacked Ukraine stole land, kidnapped children bombed civilians, committed atrocities, no flag waving mass marches across the world in support of Ukraine.

Hamas controlled Palestine attacks Israel, commits the murder of civilians, rape and kidnapp.

Israel retaliates bombs Palestine kills civilians commits alleged war crimes.

Israel is condemned and made a pariah state.

World mass marches in support of Palestine

Does anyone see the imbalance here ?

Not quite true, Casper. Blue and Yellow flags were paraded and hung all over Europe and the USA.
Flag and Badge makers made a fortune.
Eurovision last year in Liverpool , yet again predominately brought the Ukraine war to the attention on a massive scale.
4.5 million Ukranians were given refugee status in Europe.
11,000 civilians killed in 2 years.

2.2 million Palestinians , majority of whom are already refugees after they were pushed out of their villages and homes for the Israeli Settlers and their own productive land of what was Palestine .
Been forced to move from North to South, with no exit door, where they wait to be bombed night after night.
30,000 killed in 4 months

Fly aid to Israel in bombs and fly aid to Palestinians in bread !

I want to know why the Archbishop could not bring himself to meet Pastor Isaac Munther from the Christian Lutherian Church in Bethlehem when he visited UK a couple of weeks ago. Reason said to be because Munther appeared at a protest rally with Jeremy Corbyn.
So it looks like the Palestinian Christians are to be punished without a voice too . I wonder when Jesus walked the paths of Palestine, was it the same then ? Did he know how those who find control are cowards at the roots ?

and DD, I thought Galloway was your friend,not mine.

Yes there was a limited amount of support aross the world but nothing to the degree we have had for Gaza, with thousands congregating and demonstrating, I do not support either side they have both crossed the line with their attacks on the civilian population.

My simple observation, Hamas attacked Israel, it was a sneak attack designed to cause fear and havoc they allegedly committed atrocities and took hostages, not the action of victims, what did Hamas expect to happen, was it designed to unleash the horrors that are occurring and to play the victim to gain world sympathy, again its only a thought.

Israel seeks revenge with a vengence,intelligence tells them rightly or wrongly that Hamas hide in or under certain public buildings, hospitals and schools, FIBUA is extremely difficult around deserted buildings let alone with civilians milling about, military and civilian casualties are going to be high, hence the bombings to save the military casualties, I'am not condoning that but can understand it.

The hatred and mistrust of both sides is a part of history.

Conclusion, Hamas hides amongst the civilian population, Israel attacks, what is the outcome going to be? six of one half a dozen of the other with both pointing the finger at each other, only the innocent lose.

I agree with some of what you say, and also agree that the Hamas attack on Oct 7th asked for retaliation by Israel. No one can blame them for that.

However, Hamas did not come into being until 1986 in response to the decades of Israeli attacks on the Palestinians . Unfortunately, Hamas will not go away. It's said , for every innocent person killed in Gaza another 10 will join Hamas.

As the Israeli representative said today at the UNSC, Israel wishes for peace... not for the children and the grandchildren and the great granchildren of the Palestinians holding a grudge for ever.

Well, that's already happened , due to Israels inital attack on the Palestinian Chrstians in 1948, just a year after Israel was made a land for the people without a land, within the boundaries of Palestine. Since then, they've grabbed more and more and basically shoved the refugees into Gaza and placed Settlers on the ancient lands of Palestinians. Their olive groves, orange groves and the most fertile land in the region.

The following video which I posted onthe previous page and is not available any longer, is still on Youtube.
How Palestine used to be, and how in 1948 Israel ran 750,000 Palestinian Christians out of their country with no right to return, but it didn't end there .
It's pretty harrowing, but worth watching to find the history which is still being played out today.

I still cannot understand the overwhelming support for Palestine other than the massive death toll of children and I hold Hamas is as guilty as Israel for those deaths, Hamas were the author of their own misfortune, quote from the Art of War, "who wishes to fight must first count the cost" well the cost of lives in Gaza has well and truly made that quote true and to what end?

I take your point about the land grabbing and the deemed unfairness, but nothing will change that, the hate and bitterness is ingrained into their very being on both sides,

The West for obvious reasons favour Israel as stabilising influence against radical Islam in the area and will support them openly or covertley regardless.

The marches here are only going to inflame things as they are begining to disrespect the rule of law and decency and have the potential to inflame racism and hate, a Trojan horse for extremists to hijack for their own purpose.

I don't know what the answer is, but the involvement of various factions seeking to favour one side against the other will only seek to inflame the situation further.

The answer is for all nations to defend any nations that are being invaded by another. The reason they don't is purely financial, no country would take on the rest-of-the-world, not even Russia or China.

In the West, wars, military manufacturing and spending are just methods of continuing the aristocracy, money counts, peasant's lives are cheap.

The solution to the current situation is for the west to stop arming Israel and harshly sanction Israel until they agree to return roughly to the 1947 partition plan whereby Israel and Palestine have about equal amounts of land. Any other target will just be enabling this conflict to go on forever even if Israel totally flattens Gaza.

Israel has treated Palestinians like slave animals for long enough, this escalated around 1922 and all attempts at pacifying Israel has resulted in Israel continuing to take more liberties and commit more crimes. Israel will not stop at Palestine.

I don't know where you get the idea that Israel is a stabilising influence, they have always been de-stabilisers and have never stabilised anything. Palestine was generally an area of peace with mixed nationalities and religions until they had land taken away from them by those intolerant of other religions.

Stablise might be the wrong word DD buffer zone / enclave may be better suited, you say Palastine was an area of peace but since it came under the control of Hamas this no longer applies, speaking of intolerant religions I think Islam is the more intolerant of any other religion I don't think anything at the present time will stop the onslaught unless Hamas decide to give up the hostages, thats if they still have any, and agree exchanges etc not a lot to ask and maybe further concessions can be made to satisfy both parties, but something really needs to happen before more innocent people are killed.

If we talk about stability in the region, I think it is nil.
Today, reports of intense Israeli fire into Lebanon. Hezbollah have been returning fire into Israeli settlements. Israel still continues to bomb Syria (Damascus) on a weekly if not on an often daily basis.

Right at the beginning of the Gazan war, Netanyahu declared "'this will change the face of the MIddle East forever ".

He has since lined the Israeli/Lebanon border with thousands of troops.

There are mutterings coming out of Syria, and roadmaps for Syrian refugees coming out of Lebanon.

My wonder is how anythng is going to setttle down, because although Syria was advised not to respond by Saudi to the intial strikes , if they get poked too often I fear they will respond. Not necessarily the Syrian Government but the pro Palestinian groups will. In that respect will Russia come into the arena again,if it gets too bad and will Lebanon be backed by Iran ?

To be honest, I believe Netanyahu has been itching for confrontation with Iran for long enough, and in the hope that US and Western allies will fall into line. At the moment there seems to be no interest, but what goes on behind closed doors is very different .

Gaza needs to stop abruptly, before anything escalates further, negotiate the release of captives and prisoners, and hopefully move forward to something that will be acceptable to all parties.

I do wonder if Netanyahu is going doodle ally, and three different advisors and IDF generals (or whatever they are) gave three differnt versions of the terrible shooting on those following tha aid trucks the other night. One said (Mark Regev ) that there was no Army on the ground) Well that was a lie becasue their tanks clearly showed up on the imagary.

Two stories to every side, but the children and the women are being crucified when the men sleep in seperate places so that the women ,children and aged can stay together. That is quite normal within the Musim faith, and the men would not be allowed to be in the same room as numerous women and children. Next thing those places of refuge get bombed..... and apparently Israel is using AI to pinpoint the infrastructure and buildings. So they know what they do

Blimey, I've said too much.... sorry, I'll pipe down now.

Hamas is very recent, I was stating that Israel intentionally created additional instability by funding the creation of Hamas, it was a divide and conquer strategy that failed badly, not dissimilar to the USA strategy of funding and creating the Mujahideen which backfired and resulted in Al-Qaeda. Pouring money into rebel organisations rarely becomes fruitful in the long term, a very recent example being Russia and the Wagner Group.

I think we all agree on this, Gaza needs to stop abruptly, before anything escalates further, negotiate the release of captives and prisoners,and allow more aid in and hopefully move forward to something that will be acceptable to all parties, it is at the moment the only possible avenue to stop more slaughter and encourage further negotiations.

https://twitter.com/Kahlissee/status/1765223654504222988/photo/1

Claims and counter claims, I admit I have never looked at the history of it all, however what was done in the past doesn't excuse what started this war, Hamas lit the fuse, they are not stupid they knew what would happen and this is the part I can't understand, why? what gains what benefits? the deaths of thousands of innocent people and the destruction of a way of life, if as I believe it was deliberate then they have achieved their goal they have world support, but the ordinary people of Palestine have paid the price and nothing will change, Hamas are as guilty as Isreal.

I don;t think Hamas have world support, Casper , not at all, but the protests are about the killing of the innocents and particulalry the children through bombing and now starvation. That is the tragedy. However, Netanyahu made a statement on the day after 7th which was a quote from the OT bible . He said it in Hebrew and has carried out the
revenge as decreed 3,000 yrs ago. That's the trouble with the Zionists and the Israeli Settlers , their whole aganda is linked to biblical, historical texts.
Amalek was the ISraelis name for the Palestinians 3000 yrs ago.:

" Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”

Add to that the Gas Fields discovered off Gaza, which could explain the building of housing structures going on in Egypt just across the border ... not for the refugees of Palestine, but for the workers in the the gas industry .

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/pa-egypt-sign-deal-to-develop-natural-gas-field-off-gaza/

25 Feb 2021

Member of Hamas’ Political Bureau Mousa Abu-Marzouk stressed that people of Gaza and Palestinians should know the details of the deal, but PA Minister Hussein Al-Sheikh replied: “Deals are struck between states, not factions.”

The Palestinian Investment Fund owns 27.5 percent of the field. Palestine is a member of the Eastern Mediterranean Gas Forum founded two years ago, along with Israel, Egypt, Greece, Italy, Jordan, and Greek Cyprus.

The Gaza Marine was discovered in the 1990s but Palestinians could not utilize it due to Israeli restrictions.

The field, located 36 kilometers west of the besieged Gaza Strip in the Mediterranean Sea, was developed in 2000 by British Petroleum (BP).

I agree the aim of the marches are in protest and the deaths of children and other civilians, but I also think they are being hijacked and used as a vehicle for extremists to gain a following having watched some of the demos some appear more intent on supporting Hamas rather than Palestine, the police actually retreating at one stage, signs of weakness never bode well for future confrontations.

Hams lit a fuse on October 7th, however that is by only picking that one date. Why not choose any other date? Israel performed over 700 raids in Palestine during the year prior to October the 7th. Israel had far more Palestinian captives than Hamas had Israeli. Far more Palestinians have been killed by Israel every year than Israeli have been killed by Hamas etc.

Palestine has been squeezed into two small parts of their own land and every year Israel has been taking more land off them.

International law permits occupied territories to retaliate, I'm sure if we were occupied we would be cheering our resistance fighters. Are you saying the French Resistance were wrong to retaliate against the Germans in WW2?

Choosing that one date is totally misleading of the situation and reality of what is going on and what has gone on.

It was only a matter of time.

Israeli warplanes launch strikes on central and southern Lebanon.

Reported on Al Jazeera tonight.

Choosing that one date is totally misleading of the situation and reality of what is going on and what has gone on, I don't think so DD, if it had been an across the border shooting or bombing then maybe yes, but this was a pre planned organised assault noted for its filming of viciousness, sensless murder, rape anrd kidnapp, it was done to agitate a response, and to use your words if it was our armed forces retaliating against that we would be cheering, that is not to say I agree with whats going on, but I understand the reasons for it, hate and revenge are powerful emotions.

To use the reason of what has gone on doesn't excuse the actions of the 7th, if we all believed that we should seek revenge for what happened in the past we all would be constantly at odds with each other. In the context of an occupied country Palestine wouldn't qualify simply because it is controlled by Hamas and not Israel.

The actions on 7th were deadful, as we all agree but we know that Hamas is classified as a terrorists organisation , and that's what terrorists organisations do. ISIS the same, Al Qaeda the same, dozens of them.
After Arafat's death ,the only reason Gaza is controlled by Hamas is becasue it was elected in an attempt to find liberation . It didn't work, and no elections since then
have taken place.
That still does not give Israel license to commit war crimes against civilians . If Israel puts two fingers up at the International Laws and gets away with it, then what hope the rest of the world ? Should Russia do the same in Ukraine..... ?

Two BBC articles giving two interesting findings from the United Nations and others. One reports Hamas attack , other reports the Gaza findings... so there is little to choose between Hamas and IDF, they're both thugs and terrorists IMO.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68474899

[color:#FF0000]The UN team visited Israel between 29 January and 14 February.

The mission, led by Ms Patten along with nine experts, was not investigative in nature, but designed to gather and verify allegations, the UN said.

It added that 33 meetings were held with Israeli representatives, and more than 5,000 photographic images were examined as well as 50 hours of video footage.

The report said that "despite concerted efforts to encourage" victims to come forward, the team was unable to interview any of them.

Some allegations of rape and sexual violence were "unfounded", the report explained, including the graphically publicised case of a pregnant woman whose womb was reportedly torn open and her foetus stabbed. Other reports could not be verified due to limited imagery, the UN said.[/color]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68514816

[color:#FF0000]This latest UN report, which has not been published yet, was based on interviews with more than 100 detainees, part of a group of about 1,000 detainees Unrwa was able to document since December after they were freed from three Israeli military sites. They included people - both male and female - between the ages of six and 82, including 29 children.

The agency explains that this information was obtained during its role co-ordinating humanitarian aid at the Kerem Shalom crossing point between Gaza and Israel where the IDF has been releasing detainees. Information was also said to have been provided "independently and voluntarily" by Palestinians released from detention.

In a comment sent to the BBC it described the allegations as "shocking but unsurprising".

The report said many Palestinians were apprehended in northern Gaza as they took refuge in hospitals or schools or as they tried to flee south to find shelter. Others were Gazans with work permits to enter Israel. They were stranded in Israel when war broke out and were later detained.[/color]

It is an occupied country and it is totally controlled by Israel.

Israel considers all of Palestine as Israel.

Israel collects most of the tax in Palestine and gives some to the Palestine National Authority (The Palestinian Government).

All trade is controlled by Israel and is highly restrictive.

All utilities are controlled by Israel. The water and sewage systems in Gaza are all but defunct because of Israeli control over electricity. Most water is contaminated.

Building is controlled by Israel (building materials are banned from being imported, permission has to be obtained to build anything)

Israel Police operate throughout Palestine beside the Palestinian Civil Police

Gaza is titled an occupied territory because it is still under Israeli control. and has been under siege conditions (virtually no "legal" trade in or out) since 2007.

Israel openly admits its objective is to kick all Palestinians out of Gaza and to flatten all Palestinian properties. There is literally nowhere for the Palestinians to go, they are blockaded in the Gaza enclave, they have no choice but to stay until they are killed.

My apologies DD yes you are right West bank is occupied, should have done my homework first just wish the whole lot would stop and think for the sake of the innocent, it needs some movement from one or the other to break the deadlock.

Russia is doing the same granny they have committed war crimes, yet there are no parades or mass demonstrations against Russia, Ukraine are fighting a proxy war for Europe.

Yes, you are correct, Putin has been accused of war crimes and ICC have issued an arrest warrant. There have been over 70 countries that have protested against the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I'm not sure when the last ones where or even where but some attracted 10's thousands up to 100,000 in Poland, which is unnderstandable.

In defence of Gaza, and the protests pertaining to the war there, where as Ukriane is a massive country, and people can flee, Gaza is under occupation, the size of the Isle of White with a 2.2 million population squashed into small areas in tents , told they are in safe areas and then they are being bombed.
That is major war crimes. IMO, but so far nobody has called for Netanyahu to be arrested for war crimes, and USA veto everything that's put before them, and UK continue to abstain. Frightened of not showing loyalty to USA.

I can't understand how USA can call Putin a war criminal and not Netanyahu, whilst giving arms to continue the onslaught in Gaza .

I dare say, this new port will be used for dropping off more military weaponry. Four months ago, Blinken went to Cyprus to discuss a Maritime Corridor to Gaza and I can;t believe it was about providing humanitarian supplies back at the beginning of November...... now it;s going to take a couple of months to build, so we can guarantee the desperation of those Palestinians is not about to end any time soon. Fancy not having a bath for 5 months living amongst sewage and dead bodies rotting under the rubble ! Latest assesment in 7,000 bodies under the rubble.

I haven;t heard anything near as bad coming out of Ukraine .

There have been, partly by proxy. The mass demonstrations (of which there have been plenty) have been focusing more on support of Ukraine rather than against Russia https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60536064

I think the difference is that Ukraine have some chance of of forcing Russia to back off because of western military supplies. Palestine haven't got anything to stop Israel. Its the rest of the world that has to stop the massacre. This is Israel's revenge for the middle ages when the Jews were kicked out of nearly every country they were in at one time or another, of course the question should be "why did so many countries independently decide to kick the Jews out?".

France has just said they are going to supply Ukraine with 250,000 suicide-drones, they have been enormously effective against the Russians, and to a lesser extent against Ukraine. The soldiers on the ground have no protection from cheap (hobby type) droves with a grenades attached to them. Some drones are modified to drop grenades, others are modified to simply crash into things or people with a grenade. The soldiers can't run or hide away from them, many drones have infra-red cameras, the survival guidance appears to be to lie down and hope the drone operator thinks you are dead, but the drones go very close to check if they are still breathing. It is the ultimate demoraliser and destroyer. Horrendous loss of life and injuries. It can only give way to a new term "drone fodder".

Interesting quote from Herman Goering shows how people are easily weaponised.

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

Here is a link to a similar picture I used in the first post https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/status/506429591662387201/photo/1 showing the progression of Israel takeover of Palestine.

On the news this morning the Pope advising Ukraine to wave the white flag, any thoughts?

When the Pope releases all the records he has hidden away of child abuse, killings and other crimes then he can speak. The same goes for the Church of England.

Instead, they have chosen to discredit themselves.

Quite agree DD the Vatican has a dubious record of looking after its self and its own interests dating back to WW2, the Church of England no better.

That's right you two.... blame the Christians !

Child sex abuse goes on in all faiths , Hinduism, Judaism, Buddism, Muslim , and when everyone has finished knocking the Chirstians, seen the churches taken over as Mosques, and left with predominately Islam against Judaism in this country,, don;t start crying because our own British values have been eroded . It's happening now, and will continue to be so.

I think the Pope was trying to say, raise the white flag to go into discussions with Putin.
So far, Zelensky has declined on at least two occassions to have talks with the Russians.

Sexual Abuse in Jewish Communities. Sexual abuse is a national problem, not only in society at large but also in many religious faiths, including Jewish communities.

https://hermanlaw.com/practices/clergy/judaism/

I certainly will, the level of abuse within the religions is higher than in the general population, they have had loads of opportunities to come clean but instead they have continued to cover up the past and the present. It is the ultimate hypocrisy. The scale is completely off the charts. They apologise then they do it again. Unfortunately no Government has the bottle to prosecute them.

I'm glad you said 'religions', rather than pinpointing one religion .

So far as the COE goes, I do believe it's lost it's way, but if a lay preacher abuses a child behind the cloth in Scotland, it's hardly likely that the Archbishop will even know about it. If these things are brought into the open, then the necessary punishment is applied.

A Muslim allegedly converting to Christianity, is not likely to be found abusing a child in a hovel in the depths of inner city London.

However, the abuse goes on in schools, hospitals, and child orientated organisations and lets not forget 'corpses' !

The fact that the Pope made a call for a possible meeting of two sides of a conflict, could have been his way of holding onto hope that the Ukraine (being a Christian country) might save more lives being lost.
No one should condemn him for that, despite the centuries of historic abuse in the Catholic institutions.

I suspect that you would be in agreement with Church schools being closed, but not the Muslim and Jewish schools ?

Anyway, Gaza is this topic not Ukraine , the Pope or the Archbishop.Many 'leaders ' of one type or another throughout the world , should all be put in the wringer at certain times.

Abuse of Christians is world wide, and killings , destruction of Christian homes and Churches at an all time high. Islamic militants have killed 50,000 Christians in Nigeria since 2010. Punjab, 2023 , 100 Christian homes burnt down and 27 churches ransacked. Chad, 35% Christians , May 2023, 20 villages burnt down and 20,000 displaced. ... and so it goes on.

The map below gives all the countries where Christians are being subjected to suffering of one type or another... ongoing as of 2023, and many of the perpetrators of those persecutions are finding their way to UK across the Med.

Gaza doesn't get any better and Nigeria is in the depths of despair too .

Nearly 300 children kidnapped from school there, yesterday .

Should we really be concerned or should we switch off and allow these countries to sort out their own problems.

It all gets very depressing, particualrly as we are constantly fed the ongoing bad news from worldwide conflicts .

Where's Casper ? Have I frightened you ? Still love you.. XXX

And that is my problem with these institutions, while the perpetrators are criminals as in the rest of the walks of life, the churches are institutions preaching morality, if they learn about abuse or crime the very first thing they should do is inform the police, not spend years "investigating" or shuffling people and evidence around and waiting to see if they can bury it.

Not only does that apply to the present, they should release all their historic records they have squirrelled away of various crimes.

When the institution is involved it is multiple people involved and all of them are equally culpable as well as the institution itself.

As far as I'm concerned, they have outstayed their welcome and it is beyond me why they have any special status socially, legally or politically.

That's right you two.... blame the Christians ! https://hermanlaw.com/practices/clergy/judais

No granny still here, as you say all religions are guilty of some kind of abuse, but some stand out above others due to the fact of the influence they have, the Popes ill thought out words of waving the white flag I would imagine have the opposite effect in Ukraine more like waving a red rag to a bull, ill chosen words often aggravate rather than pacify, the Archbishop reaching out to the Muslim faith may appear as taking sides, its all down to interpritation, wouldn't it be better if they appeared neutral and just said words like to all those suffering in the various conflicts around the world our thoughts are with you, aren't we all equal in gods eyes ?

Wheres Casper ? that sounds like the basis for a who dunnit. love you too xxx

Good Mornning.

Yes, you're both right in what you say and the crime does cover many areas connected to children .

Having just listened to the last end of a docu on Timor and surrounding regions, they don;t even consider abuse and peodophilia to be wrong . An acceptible way of life, apparently. I'm not sure which is the major religion there, but I suspect if it's an acceptable practice, it won't be confined to the religous institutions.

Unfortuantely, where abuse and peodophilia is concerned, often the victims don't come forward. They probably don;t know how to when young, some won;t even know it's wrong, and others would prefer not to admit to the horrors inflicted on them.

To be honest, I don;t even know if I could have come forward as a victim of abused as a child. It must be a terrrible experience to rake it all up again with all the questioning etc , even in adulthood.

We should though. not forget those who have no part and follow their own religion as a member of a faith , and if nothing else, it can give comfort in times of need . At the end of the day, everyone needs someone .

Back to Gaza..

It's just getting horrid. More shooting last night as people trying to get aid. Is this why the deliveries of aid arrive in the dark... so the shooters can;t be identified ? Now Israel has put forward that Gaza will be islands !! People to move from the South back to the centre, and they will be in islands.. I suppose that means they will be behind barbed wire and sectioned off from others.. A bit like Jerusalem, and the east /west walls.

Have a good weekend. X

( To be honest, I don;t even know if I could have come forward as a victim of abused as a child. It must be a terrrible experience to rake it all up again with all the questioning etc , even in adulthood. )

Having just re-read my above post, the wording could have indicated that I was abused as a child.
No, I wasn't. So I'm sorry if anyone picked up the wrong message , it was a badly contructed sentence. However, my heart goes out to any who have been .