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casper #1003574 4th Mar 2016 10:14am
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In my view the EU is failing and I think the sooner we get out the better. If we leave I think down the line other countries would start to get dissatisfied. It might take years for any improvement if we did leave but as Granny said I want to see a decent future for my grandchild .i hate that we are so tied up and can't do what we need to do in this country being told this and being told that by these other countries who lets face it are only looking out for themselves .lets be a strong nation again and rule it ourselves.

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cools #1003584 4th Mar 2016 11:09am
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I get were you are coming from cools,we all want the best for our grandkids, but my fear is that we will be out of the frying pan into the fire, I don't trust the Tories, those pushing for out are on the right wing of the party, IDS is spouting about us being a great nation, the fifth richest in the world, yet we have poverty, poor housing, with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, our armed forces are a shadow of what they were, we have virtually nil industry our country belongs to foreign investors, to be great and survive we need to be able to look after ourselves, yet we manufacture very very little and are reliant on import and export an Island with no Merchant navy as such with its closest market across the channel.

granny #1003606 4th Mar 2016 2:59pm
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The way I see it is that we have some control over our own government, they do bow down to public opinion when it is strong enough, however we have very little control over European decisions, they just do what they like.

I should also mention that whether it makes sense or not, having the House of Lords has often worked in the public's favour on getting the government to see sense. I'm against the format of the House of Lords in principal but in practice I think we need it as an essential safety net.

IDS is a worry, he is pretty much a pure capitalist, you only have to look at the reality of America to see where this heads, while TV and films generally show the wealthy side of America, the reality is that the average American is a lot poorer than the average Brit and works a lot more hours.


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I think on similar lines DD, and yes I can see us becoming like the US, as to the House of Lords, the Tories have already threatened to flood the house with their own supporters and with absolute power the opinions of the public wont matter, as far fetched as it may seem many covert organisations were set up to counter what was described as a possible threat to democracy in the 70's ( the Wilson government) these right wing organisations were allegedly to be set up to assist in case of civil unrest, one such organisation GB75 was raised by David Sterling the founder of the SAS and consisted of arms dealers, ex military personnel and funded by those with vested interests, other organisations like the RPOC or group 13 had similar aims.

casper #1003621 4th Mar 2016 7:10pm
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I remember watching the programme about the undercover agents and GB75 all those years ago in the 1970's . They had loads of different units positioned all over the country, ready to act at a moments notice. It was bloody serious.
It wasn't anything to do with simply 'civil unrest', it was more to do with the threat to the country's democracy and it was set up the event of a Soviet invasion of the UK, during the cold war. Wilson was suspected of having dealings with the communists and Russian agents, and I also remember that his offices were searched and documents taken around the same time.
If you, Casper think that if there was a threat at the time to this country, which should have been overlooked and left to ride without having a defence mechanism in place, then I really don't know where your loyalties lie.
If , Casper, you are hard left, which would appear to be so, then do say because I am unsure as to which form of defence of our democracy you would prefer.
Why are you so upset about our armies being diminished but you support the EU to diminish them even more to combine EU forces to fight against whatever, when needed, but you didn't like the idea of undercover networks in the event of communism taking over the country ?
So far as IDS in concerned he and most of the other Tories that you so despise, will not be in their positions for too long, so that should not be part of the equation when voting in this referendum.


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
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granny #1003625 4th Mar 2016 9:28pm
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I always thought of GB75 a a thinly disguised attempt at setting up a military coup in this country. It would certainly be in keeping with the way David Stirling was heading, his initial work with the SAS was exemplary but then he just became a mercenary on a bigger and bigger scale.

The House of Lords works quite well because members have reached the peak of the their political career, they no longer have to be a career politician trying to impress people for the wrong reasons, they can become free thinkers. If Cameron thinks flooding the house with Tories will make it more compliant with a right wing parliament, he might be in for a shock.


We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn

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Originally Posted by diggingdeeper
I always thought of GB75 a a thinly disguised attempt at setting up a military coup in this country. It would certainly be in keeping with the way David Stirling was heading, his initial work with the SAS was exemplary but then he just became a mercenary on a bigger and bigger scale.



Yes, but there was more than David Stirling's involvement, and a military coup would have been dreadful, but maybe not so dreadful as a communist take over. At least the possibility of regaining a democratic government again after the event, as happened in Greece after their military coup.

Does anyone remember Jack Jones TGWU ? He was said to be a communist and also guilty of attempting to bring Wilson's and Callaghan's government down. He was also said by one Oleg Gordievsky,a KGB colonel, to have sold secrets to Russia for over 40 years and believes he remained a traitor to this country until his death.

Last edited by granny; 4th Mar 2016 10:14pm.

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
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granny #1003628 4th Mar 2016 11:09pm
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There is so much going on that we don't know.

Someone on News Night has just stated that Putin funds Marine le Pen's , French National Front Party. They are on the rise in France. Putin trying to get his foothold ?


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
granny #1003642 5th Mar 2016 10:20am
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Good morning granny,just to put things straight, I also believe in democracy, not the type that needs the muzzle of a gun or an unofficial force to get it into power because that is what GB 75 was an illegal organisation funded by people with a vested interest big business and members of the Tory party, you do realize that? It is even more ludicrous to suggest that if Wilson was a Soviet agent he would have got as far as being elected without suspicions being aroused, I used the words civil unrest because that is what they led people to believe they couldn't very well say the were planning a coup d'etat could they? that wouldn't be democratic would it? to overthrow an elected government by force, even some of their backers got the wind up and withdrew funding, anyway not a lot is known or published about such organisations.

Just a bit about my concerns for our armed forces, I have a great pride in them having once been a proud serving member, and feel saddened that they have been neglected and run down to such a low level, you speak of the EU it is not the EU asking for integration it is us to save money, don't forget our forces were based in Germany along with our NATO allies to face the threat of a Soviet invasion, so nothing new in that.

I do feel a bit let down that you felt it right to question my loyalties based on what you perceive me to be, based no doubt on my postings on here,I am not a commie a pinko nor a red I thought better of you than that as I have always enjoyed you posts and believe you have a great deal of experience and wisdom to offer on Wiki, I could suggest that you were far right and that you supported a coup against a democratically elected government based on what you had written but I don't for one minute believe that, the point I was making was about mistrust in a government that I believe based on present and past actions could if the circumstances arose use undemocratic means to stay in power.

Still love you granny smile


casper #1003659 5th Mar 2016 2:24pm
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If you remember, the Labour Government was funded by the Trade Unions. We had Jack Jones and Arthur Scargill running a mock during the Heath years prior to Wilson being re-elected.
The country was on the verge of anarchy. I think your perception that high ranking Tories were about to fund operations of a coup is possibly not quite so true, rather the fact that the USA and CIA were very much involved. Wilson was checked out for decades , afterwards.

According to recent reports , it was all based on misinformation, but even so, there seems to have been a huge amount of misinformation. We shall maybe never know the truth but one does know that the communist element was at the fore of Unions with some of their members and leaders, and at the same time the same people did finance the Labour Party, so why shouldn't the Tories finance their own activities (if it should have been down to them)?

We also have to look all sorts of Soviet spies over a few decades. Do you remember it all ? They were turning up everywhere. John Vassal, Anthony Blunt, Philby, the Cambridge Spy Ring. Dead exciting to hear these stories coming across the 'wireless' and I dare say, many were pretty scared of what might have been.
No I can't agree that a Coup would have been the answer but we don't truly know what went on behind the scenes and never will, but something might well have had to happen to safe guard the country.

As an addition to my last post on Mr Putin and his funding of the French National Front party, the same man who stated this (and with that in mind)also said it is not a good time for the UK to leave the EU.
Those are the points and information which I feel are more inclined to form my final decision and as it stands, I don't feel democracy is likely to survive in the EU.

This is an interesting read: Sons of Soldiers

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...in%20harold%20wilson%20years&f=false

Love you too Casper. Kissy, kissy. smile



Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
granny #1003660 5th Mar 2016 4:03pm
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This is better....

We came close to losing our democracy in 1979

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2009/06/we-came-close-to-losing-our-democracy-in-1979/


Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect.
~Chief Seattle
granny #1003664 5th Mar 2016 4:27pm
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Originally Posted by granny
This is better....

We came close to losing our democracy in 1979

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2009/06/we-came-close-to-losing-our-democracy-in-1979/


Most interesting, Granny. To save myself from being too irritated, I ignore certain members whom I judge to be hard left;(there are three of them), but I occasionally peep at their posts.


Carpe diem.
granny #1003667 5th Mar 2016 6:32pm
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Perhaps those making judgement should also read this

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009oct/10/jack-jones-christopher-andrew-mi5

granny #1003669 5th Mar 2016 6:47pm
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But both the heavy industries Unions and the coal industry Unions have both proven to be 100% correct, the capitalist and globalisation policies of the Governments has destroyed them both.

Where is our coal industry?
Where is our steel industry?
Where are our shipbuilders?
Where are our utility companies?
Where are our power industries?

All of them have either gone, are a mere shadow of their former selves or are owned by foreign companies.

We can't survive as a country by shuffling paper round in circles which is what the majority of employment in this country does.


We don't do charity in Germany, we pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities - Henning Wehn

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granny #1003670 5th Mar 2016 6:48pm
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Link not working Casper.

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